WI: Julian the Apostate lived

Elfwine

Even if paganism is strong enough for a possible revival, is Julian really the man to do it?

That's the other half of the question, and one which I'm not seeing any encouraging answers for.

King of Malta: If the army was solidly pagan, Theodosius would find himself replaced. Roman tradition of dealing with emperors who the army dislikes.

So that has to at least say something.
 

Malta

Elfwine said:
Even if paganism is strong enough for a possible revival, is Julian really the man to do it?

That's the other half of the question.
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He seemed to have been doing it well at the time, he was smart enough to know that to destroy Christian influence you didn't go about killing them but shutting them out. This shows despite his own grandeur belief on the battlefield he was levelheaded in dealing with political opponents.

Elfwine said:
Even if paganism is strong enough for a possible revival, is Julian really the man to do it?

That's the other half of the question, and one which I'm not seeing any encouraging answers for.

King of Malta: If the army was solidly pagan, Theodosius would find himself replaced. Roman tradition of dealing with emperors who the army dislikes.

So that has to at least say something.
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Again, Julian was never replaced by his own army, he was proclaimed Augustus by his army in the West. Thats why the Persian Campaign was important, to solidify his image amongst the Eastern army units who were more Christian then their Western counterparts.
 

Elfwine

King of Malta said:
He seemed to have been doing it well at the time, he was smart enough to know that to destroy Christian influence you didn't go about killing them but shutting them out. This shows despite his own grandeur belief on the battlefield he was levelheaded in dealing with political opponents.
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And shutting them out was doing such an amazing job of reviving paganism that his death did nothing to end the surging tide that was only smashed under...oh wait, what tide?

This isn't about shutting out Christians, its about pagans (those of his time) being...less than enthusiastic.

So long as the pagans aren't rallying around him and his cause, all he's doing is creating trouble, not pagans.
 

mailinutile2

King of Malta said:
He seemed to have been doing it well at the time, he was smart enough to know that to destroy Christian influence you didn't go about killing them but shutting them out. This shows despite his own grandeur belief on the battlefield he was levelheaded in dealing with political opponents.
Click to expand...
His attitude caused hostility when not widespread revolts and he managed to alienate some of the most important cities (Anthiochia for one).
Which, considering his short reign, seems quite a record, but does not qualify much as levelheaded

I think that a follower of the "reformed" paganism (Apollonius of Tyana-like ) could have more success
 

Malta

Elfwine said:
And shutting them out was doing such an amazing job of reviving paganism that his death did nothing to end the surging tide that was only smashed under...oh wait, what tide?
Click to expand...

Yet other attempts were made to Establish Pagan rule over portions of the Roman Empire, like Eugenius and Anti-Pagan laws and persecution continued well into the 5th century and beyond. The tricky thing with History is that much of it was destroyed through the ages, in the sucessive centuries of Christian domination the vast majority of Pagan Works (from Architecture to Literature) has been destroyed, surviving accounts are scare and only those that were supreamly famous in their times survive.

Again also note that 'Paganism' is just a blanket term, and came in many forms.
 

dreadnought jenkins

King of Malta said:
He wasn't killed by a Christian Roman, and ruled as a Pagan, and upheld the 'Pagan' legacy.
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How does not being killed by a Christian make you great?

A number of Emperors ruled as Pagans before Constantine and we don't label all of them "Great"...

What exactly is the "pagan" legacy? Is that platonist philosophy, because I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church ate that up whole hog...

Is it pagan rituals? A number of those survived Christianity too. Just look at Christmas/Winter Solstice.

Is it the political system? The Christian Byzantines kept that going for a while up to Maurice.

Was it the language? Because the Catholic Church was really the only reason latin was still in any way relevant by the middle ages...

Your answer could do with some more clarification.
 

Samm

Considering that he seemed to have caused near revolt in less than two years, had apparently little influence over his own army (some say he was killed by one of his own soldiers) and he seemed to have little popularity outside of the aristocracy of Rome I don't see him going anywhere. Anyway his attempts to limit Christianity seem to have been limited to banning them from acting as teachers of classical texts which strikes me as more likely to cause resentment than serious damage.
 

Malta

dreadnought jenkins said:
How does not being killed by a Christian make you great?

A number of Emperors ruled as Pagans before Constantine and we don't label all of them "Great"...

What exactly is the "pagan" legacy? Is that platonist philosophy, because I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church ate that up whole hog...

Is it pagan rituals? A number of those survived Christianity too. Just look at Christmas/Winter Solstice.

Is it the political system? The Christian Byzantines kept that going for a while up to Maurice.

Was it the language? Because the Catholic Church was really the only reason latin was still in any way relevant by the middle ages...

Your answer could do with some more clarification.
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Its mostly about flipping the bird to the Church for labeling him aposate. Look at the apaprent Christian bias.
 

Elfwine

King of Malta said:
Yet other attempts were made to Establish Pagan rule over portions of the Roman Empire, like Eugenius and Anti-Pagan laws and persecution continued well into the 5th century and beyond. The tricky thing with History is that much of it was destroyed through the ages, in the sucessive centuries of Christian domination the vast majority of Pagan Works (from Architecture to Literature) has been destroyed, surviving accounts are scare and only those that were supreamly famous in their times survive.

Again also note that 'Paganism' is just a blanket term, and came in many forms.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between paganism not being outright dead (which is what those who wanted an all-Christian state wanted), and paganism being a significant force.

The tricky thing about history is that people like the idea that the Church destroyed pre-Christian stuff with wanton abandon, despite that not being true.

Only those that were deemed worth recopying - i.e the really important/famous stuff - survived. Not because of evol Churchmen, but because its not as easy as a second or sixteenth printing is these days.
 

mailinutile2

King of Malta said:
Yet other attempts were made to Establish Pagan rule over portions of the Roman Empire, like Eugenius and Anti-Pagan laws and persecution continued well into the 5th century and beyond.

Again also note that 'Paganism' is just a blanket term, and came in many forms.
Click to expand...

Paganism importance at roughly that time could be judged by the fact that Theodosius, when making his law establishing the Nycean creed as state religion, did explicitly ban Arianism, but forgot to mention in the ban pagan temples until 2 year later, when he revised the law.
 

Elfwine

dreadnought jenkins said:
But he was one. He was born and raised a Christian, and then left the Church. That makes him an apostate by definition.
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The real flipping of the bird to the Church, in my opinion, would be to make that a badge of honor - he was raised in their misguided ways and then saw the light and...

Oh dear sweet homeless temple gods. A born-again (not that the term makes any sense in the context of paganism, but its appropriate to get the impression across) pagan. This explains his quixoticism.
 

mailinutile2

dreadnought jenkins said:
How does not being killed by a Christian make you great?

A number of Emperors ruled as Pagans before Constantine and we don't label all of them "Great"...
Click to expand...
Pompey was, and while being pagan (or, more probably, agnostic), he wasn't even an emperor as we dub the term now (thouch no doubt his legion hailed him as imperator)
 

Samm

King of Malta said:
He wasn't killed by a Christian Roman, and ruled as a Pagan, and upheld the 'Pagan' legacy.
Click to expand...
What on earth do you mean by the pagan legacy? Do you mean the state religion of Rome, that eleborate justification for slavery, cucifiction and other barbarisms to be exported throughout the world? Or neoplatoism and the other philosophies that were embraced by the church anyway? Or the folk beliefs of the common people that have generally survived?

Edit: You know I have just realised that was a bit harsh but one of my pet peaves is the incredible amount of idealisation the Roman empire and classical culture in general gets and the general critisim of christianity for (allegedly) destroying it. As far as I can see insofar as christianity was responsible for the fall of classical civilisation it was overall a good thing since even feudualism was probally far better far the common people than what came before it.
 
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