WI: John Bonham In the Who

[Gosing]

Awright, gents, I saw this scenario proposed in another thread a long while back, and I think it's interesting enough to have its own thread...

On January 14, 1979 (just after the end of the recording for In Through the Out Door), Jimmy Page takes a bit too much heroin and ODs. Shocked by the sudden loss of a founding member, the three remaining members of Led Zeppelin decide it isn't worth trying to find a replacement and stay together only long enough to release their last album.

Meanwhile, the Who are reeling from a casualty of their own-it has been only four months since the death of Keith Moon. The band has already decided to try and tough it out and find a new drummer; Kenney Jones of The Faces is a prime candidate, but Roger Daltrey had some doubts. The situation is altered drastically when John Bonham suddenly needs a job-he and Moon had had a sort-of friendship, occasionally performing together, and Moon was the one who gave Jimmy Page the idea of calling his new band "Led Zeppelin". Both Bonham and the Who, having seen first hand what rampant drug use can do, are trying to get clean, and the move would make financial sense-who wouldn't come to see the reborn Who with Led Zeppelin thrown in? The band decides to offer Bonham the job, and Bonham, after a bit of thought, agrees.

So, besides Margaret Thatcher being overthrown by the Power of Rock and Britain becoming a socialist paradise, what happens next? In OTL the Who's next album, Face Dances, actually performed extremely well; how would their next album perform in TTL? Hell, what would it even sound like? I could imagine the Who, providing Townshend manages to hold his personal life together, could survive through most of the '80s; would they adopt any contemporary trends, or would they stick to their old style? And either way, would they find a way to stay relevant?

I'll probably include this if I ever make a 20th Century TL I've been mulling over for a few months.

 

[Gosing]

Bump?........

 

[loneranger]

Off the top of my head, Bonham's "Greatest Drummer of All Time"* title probably takes a hit. He'd most likely still be considered great, but not the greatest. Perhaps Keith Moon himself ends up with that title by modern day. Anyways, Bonham on Face Dances would sound awesome. I'd suspect there would be slightly faster tempos and more complicated bass lines all around. And of course, you're going to be hearing Bonham's signature triplets all up in there (maybe that's even what starts off "Don't Let Go The Coat").

There also won't be The Firm, but no one cares. Barring butterflies, the Led Zeppelin reunion at Live Aid could maybe feature Pete Townshend on guitar and not suck. Also, Jason Bonham's style might be altered if he has more years to learn from (or reject) any teaching John might give. Jason might also be less popular without filling in his father's role in various Zeppelin shows over the years.

*regardless of whether you agree or not, that is what he's called

 

[The Admiral Hook]

Off the top of my head, Bonham's "Greatest Drummer of All Time"* title probably takes a hit. He'd most likely still be considered great, but not the greatest. Perhaps Keith Moon himself ends up with that title by modern day. Anyways, Bonham on Face Dances would sound awesome. I'd suspect there would be slightly faster tempos and more complicated bass lines all around. And of course, you're going to be hearing Bonham's signature triplets all up in there (maybe that's even what starts off "Don't Let Go The Coat").

There also won't be The Firm, but no one cares. Barring butterflies, the Led Zeppelin reunion at Live Aid could maybe feature Pete Townshend on guitar and not suck. Also, Jason Bonham's style might be altered if he has more years to learn from (or reject) any teaching John might give. Jason might also be less popular without filling in his father's role in various Zeppelin shows over the years.

*regardless of whether you agree or not, that is what he's called

Ha! You stinker...

I'd say this is pretty much as accurate as possible.

Moon would almost certainly be considered the Greatest Drummer of All Time (which, IOTL, he was considered such by a large number of fans and other musicians, including Zak Starkey, Neil Peart, the Who themselves of course... and in some interviews even Jason Bonham) but John Bonham would still be way up there, especially after huge Bonham-fan Grohl becomes the last surviving and most successful godfather of grunge - if he still does... (butterflies having him stay with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers after SNL would be hilarious...)

Although as a musician, I am of the opinion that Bonham is great but generally overrated, I have to say that this absolutely SAVES the post-Moon Who. It also could save Zeppelin with Townsend at Live Aid as you said, ideaguy.

 

[loneranger]

Dave Grohl might be butterflied, at least a little bit. At the time of the POD Dave was not a musician at all. One year post-POD he'd pick up guitar, and it wasn't until he was in high school (the mid-80s) that he picked up the drums. So, he may not pick up Bonham's style. Without such a solid drummer, IMO Nirvana wouldn't make it as big.

Assuming Grohl does end up on the drums, he may pick up a more Moon-influenced style. Or he may stick to guitar. Or he may not even become a musician.

But this is all more of a side thing and all based on butterflies. I just love Dave Grohl.

 

[The Admiral Hook]

Dave Grohl might be butterflied, at least a little bit. At the time of the POD Dave was not a musician at all. One year post-POD he'd pick up guitar, and it wasn't until he was in high school (the mid-80s) that he picked up the drums. So, he may not pick up Bonham's style. Without such a solid drummer, IMO Nirvana wouldn't make it as big.

Assuming Grohl does end up on the drums, he may pick up a more Moon-influenced style. Or he may stick to guitar. Or he may not even become a musician.

But this is all more of a side thing and all based on butterflies. I just love Dave Grohl.

If this results in a Moon obsessed Grohl I will kiss your f*cking face.

 

[loneranger]

What about you, Gosing? What do you think. Right now it's just me and InfApe going back and forth.

 

[Gosing]

What about you, Gosing? What do you think. Right now it's just me and InfApe going back and forth.

Me? I only know what's on Wikipedia .

I'm not particularily familiar with Face Dances, but from listening to its two singles (You Better You Bet and Don't Let Go the Coat) I can say I'd probably hate it. Maybe its just nostalgia (can nostalgia apply to an era you didn't live through?) but the quality of their music seems to have deteriorated badly; they're still...competent, but the inventiveness of their glory days is gone. I have to agree with Daltrey on Kennney Jones' incompatibility with the band, John Entwistle seems to have forgotten how to write a decently complex baseline, and Pete Townshend looks like he's about to collapse.

How much throwing Bonham into the mix will change all that is questionable. Judging by his work IOTL, he wouldn't be content to sit pretty and bang out a straight 4/4 melody for an hour; he'd be right in the thick of things, writing songs and hopefully challenging the other members of the band to do...something. Pete Townshend's personal life is the main issue here; IOTL he quit the Who due to drug troubles and a failing marriage, but IIRC those were largely driven by the failure of It's Hard. (Quick thought-WI it's Robet Plant who dies, and Jimmy Page takes over from Townshend after he quits the band? I've always liked the image of JP playing a solo over a John Entwhistle baseline. Ah, the joys of diverging scenarios!)

Anyways, Face Dances is likely to be better and bigger then OTL; even if the music is no better then IOTL (unlikely, IMO) the pop appeal of John Fucking Bonham in the Fucking Who! would bring fans in in droves. Hopefully that would be enough to keep Townshend in the band; if not, there's my Page scenario. Hopefully It's Hard would be butterflied away and replaced by a superior album; an album that all the critics would call the rebirth of the Who.

Assuming a couple of big hits from the alt-album (not too hard to believe; It's Hard made it to 11 IOTL) the dynamics of the Band would be totally changed. Instead of falling into obscurity and collapse, they would be sweeping through the charts; the critics would be harping on their comeback; and their music would be...well...good, again.

After that, of course, the band would run into trouble. Their main issue would be whether to press on as hard '70s rockers, or whether to try to connect with the young and hip crowd of 1983. I honestly have no idea what path they would chart; IMO it could go either way. I'd like to think they'd put out a few more good albums before dissolving, and that they'd be a bit more popular in 2011; and that the 1980s wouldn't be seen as predawn rather then dusk for the Who.

I may try to commit those ramblings to a TL...

 

[loneranger]

Entwistle would probably be forced to write more complicated bass lines on Face Dances. Bonzo had a killer right foot, which is why I love him so much. Four on the floor, he could do, but maybe only once an album. From some of the videos I've seen, though, I think Entwistle could keep up with Bonzo's speed. It may actually strengthen the Who's rhythm section, as two quotes come to mind.
I don't remember how the quotes went exactly, but I remember reading that Entwistle missed Moon as a person, but not a musician. Conversely, I've read a quote where John Paul Jones said that Bonzo was "a bass player's dream", or something to that effect. So, perhaps Entwistle and Bonzo would mesh perfectly.

Either way, nothing can be worse than the shit the Kenney Jones put out on those drum tracks. (Kidding, mostly)

 

[The Admiral Hook]

Either way, nothing can be worse than the shit the Kenney Jones put out on those drum tracks. (Kidding, mostly)

This. For all our disagreements, this is one thing I'm so glad we agree upon.

In my upcoming 20th century cultural TL (which I have to de-convolute a little, as it were) David Jones (later, Bowie) joins the fledgling Who and despite his youth, his talent as a saxophonist/frontman/rhythm guitarist as well as a writer win the love of everyone in the band with the notable exception of infamous bully, Roger Daltrey who makes his exit before Keith Moon is hired. Bowie/Townsend form a sort of Lennon/McCartney relationship and the resulting band is the mod (and later glam) competitor of the Beatles throughout the sixties. I'm thinking of having Daltrey be sort of a roaming frontman to one hit wonder blues bands throughout the decade. I considered having him front Zep...

Keep in mind all of this is in a TL where the Beatles invent dance-rock (by having a very different surprise drummer - whose identity randomideaguy already knows) and the butterflies from the earlier POD are tremendous.

Anyway, I may use this idea if you don't. A Who in 1979 with a line-up of Bowie/Townsend/Entwistle/Bonham in a post-dancerock climate is too good to pass up...

 

[flippikat]

This. For all our disagreements, this is one thing I'm so glad we agree upon.

In my upcoming 20th century cultural TL (which I have to de-convolute a little, as it were) David Jones (later, Bowie) joins the fledgling Who and despite his youth, his talent as a saxophonist/frontman/rhythm guitarist as well as a writer win the love of everyone in the band with the notable exception of infamous bully, Roger Daltrey who makes his exit before Keith Moon is hired. Bowie/Townsend form a sort of Lennon/McCartney relationship and the resulting band is the mod (and later glam) competitor of the Beatles throughout the sixties. I'm thinking of having Daltrey be sort of a roaming frontman to one hit wonder blues bands throughout the decade. I considered having him front Zep...

Keep in mind all of this is in a TL where the Beatles invent dance-rock (by having a very different surprise drummer - whose identity randomideaguy already knows) and the butterflies from the earlier POD are tremendous.

Anyway, I may use this idea if you don't. A Who in 1979 with a line-up of Bowie/Townsend/Entwistle/Bonham in a post-dancerock climate is too good to pass up...

Interesting.. I once had a an idea for a TL where Bowie joins Pink Floyd in late 1967 to assist with songwriting as Syd Barrett recouperates from his drug habit. In the end I went for Kevin Ayers (ex-Soft Machine) instead - his songwriting style is closer to Syd's and their paths crossed often enough to make a POD more reasonable. In due course, Roger Waters gets tired of the whimsy and quits to form his own band circa 1971!

 

[The Admiral Hook]

Interesting.. I once had a an idea for a TL where Bowie joins Pink Floyd in late 1967 to assist with songwriting as Syd Barrett recouperates from his drug habit. In the end I went for Kevin Ayers (ex-Soft Machine) instead - his style is closer to Syd's and their paths crossed often enough to make a POD more reasonable. In due course, Roger Waters gets tired of the whimsy and quits to form his own band circa 1971!

That's great too! Alternate Bowies are endless.

 

[Gosing]

This. For all our disagreements, this is one thing I'm so glad we agree upon.

In my upcoming 20th century cultural TL (which I have to de-convolute a little, as it were) David Jones (later, Bowie) joins the fledgling Who and despite his youth, his talent as a saxophonist/frontman/rhythm guitarist as well as a writer win the love of everyone in the band with the notable exception of infamous bully, Roger Daltrey who makes his exit before Keith Moon is hired. Bowie/Townsend form a sort of Lennon/McCartney relationship and the resulting band is the mod (and later glam) competitor of the Beatles throughout the sixties. I'm thinking of having Daltrey be sort of a roaming frontman to one hit wonder blues bands throughout the decade. I considered having him front Zep...

Keep in mind all of this is in a TL where the Beatles invent dance-rock (by having a very different surprise drummer - whose identity randomideaguy already knows) and the butterflies from the earlier POD are tremendous.

Anyway, I may use this idea if you don't. A Who in 1979 with a line-up of Bowie/Townsend/Entwistle/Bonham in a post-dancerock climate is too good to pass up...

Wow...I really want to read this TL now! I'd be happy to help out if you needed it, but if not I demand you write the first update as quickly as possible!

Thinking about it, the long-term reprecussions of sucha TL would be huge. The Beatles being a dance-rock band, rather then the Launchers of a Thousand Genres they were IOTL, would close a lot of paths for other bands who took their cues from them IOTL. By the late '60s I could see three camps emerging-a dance crowd centered on the Beatles, a blues/hard rock crowd centered on the Stones (and later *Zeppelin) and a neo-Mod/arena rock crowd, centered on the Who and united with the Stones crowd in hatred of the dancers, with a fledgling psychadelic scene popping up (wait, wait, wait, early psychadelia was Beatles-influenced, so that means...no Pink Floyd . Well, at least Syd Barrett might be spared...and interesting things could be done with the OTL members...)

Excuse me for my ramblings.

 

[Kalvan]

(wait, wait, wait, early psychadelia was Beatles-influences, so that means...no Pink Floyd . Well, at least Syd Barrett might be spared...and interesting things could be done with the OTL members...)

Excuse me for my ramblings.

Except that Pet Sounds, Are You Experienced, Fire, and 1001 other such albums predated Sgt. Pepper, and even Strawberry Fields Forever, sometimes by as much as a full year. Also the Beatles were not active in the Bay Area bar rock scene, so the likes of The Grateful Dead, The Doors, and Strawberry Alarm Clock will spend at least some time psychodelic.

As long as Barrett is part of the original lineup of Pink Floyd, they'll be psychodelic too.

It's the direction of Deep Purple you'd have to look hard at.

 

[loneranger]

A potential variation on this What If:

Robert Plant dies in his car accident in 1975. This knocks out Zeppelin at the height of their career, and I daresay makes them more popular in the long run. With Physical Graffiti as their last album, that makes Zep end on a much stronger note. Now, there may be some debate on whether or not Page has the balls to keep the band running without Plant, as he seemed to be of the impression that the band relied solely on his and Bonham's playing. Considering Bonham and Plant were childhood friends, though, I think Bonham wouldn't like that. So, let's just presume that this results in a Zeppelin break up, 1975.

At this time, the Who have just released Who By The Numbers, and have begun touring. Bonham and Moon being friends, I could see Bonham joining on the tour. Not as a side act, just like chilling with the Who and traveling around with them. Now, by this point, Moon was getting a little fat, and I believe he was still passing out and shit. So, it might not be unlikely for Bonham to maybe "fill in" for him, every so often.

This may seem like a trivial way to reach the exact same conclusion, but then you have to remember that now there's a chance of Bonham recording a track or two on Who Are You while Moon is passed out, and having some live playing experience with them before Moon's death. This would help the transition to Bonham much easier.

On a side note, apparently Moon's ex-wife dated the Keyboardist of Faces. It's not such a stretch to have her date Kenney Jones instead. With Moon pissed at Jones, there's no way in hell the Who would consider replacing Moon with him.

 

[flippikat]

That's great too! Alternate Bowies are endless.

Well, feel free to use the Pink Floyd + Kevin Ayers idea if it fits.

In the late 60s I imagined an anarchic, whimsical Pink Floyd carrying on under the songwriting or Ayers/Barrett.

The crunch would come after the release of Atom Heart Mother, with Roger Waters pushing for the group to record his new song, but Ayers & Barrett knocking it back. ("Too long, too slow, too similar to the long song on the last album" they say)

The song becomes the title track of Roger Waters new band's debut album.. And indeed the name of the new band itself.

His new band is called "Echoes".

Ok, I've hijacked this enough now.. I'll move on...

 

[The Admiral Hook]

Wow...I really want to read this TL now! I'd be happy to help out if you needed it, but if not I demand you write the first update as quickly as possible!

Thinking about it, the long-term reprecussions of sucha TL would be huge. The Beatles being a dance-rock band, rather then the Launchers of a Thousand Genres they were IOTL, would close a lot of paths for other bands who took their cues from them IOTL. By the late '60s I could see three camps emerging-a dance crowd centered on the Beatles, a blues/hard rock crowd centered on the Stones (and later *Zeppelin) and a neo-Mod/arena rock crowd, centered on the Who and united with the Stones crowd in hatred of the dancers, with a fledgling psychadelic scene popping up (wait, wait, wait, early psychadelia was Beatles-influenced, so that means...no Pink Floyd . Well, at least Syd Barrett might be spared...and interesting things could be done with the OTL members...)

Excuse me for my ramblings.

THANKS!

The concept is to keep them as the launchers of a thousand genres as IOTL, but having all those genres influenced and informed by this dance-rock drum/bass feel. So slower things become proto-funk and faster things more disco-rock, if you will.

A slight increase in their popularity from OTL early on leaves them as the template for the tides of sixties music. Everybody takes their lead. Ringo Starr (who got his fills stolen by the Beatles' drummer and in turn stole their drummer's dance beat) is a Texan and launches the American counter-invasion almost as soon as the Beatles arrive on the collective consciousness. Meanwhile, the Stones also receive a dance-rock drummer from Liverpool who helps them to completely revolutionize "dance-R&B" in time for the Bowie led Who to come onto the scene at just the perfect time.

The Beach Boys are not immune from the infectious beat of Merseyside, even before it catches on full force in America, and a driving, dance-beat informed "Surfin' USA" changes the face of West Coast music, surf, and last but not least, Garage Rock for the (EVEN) better.

Pretty much any song from the era in OTL can be danced up either drastically or subtly (sometimes in your head with little effort) and so the enormous cultural butterflies are less easy to exaggerate. However, psychedelic disco-rock is probably going to be just as good on speed as it is on pot so... imagine the possibilities there...

Except that Pet Sounds, Are You Experienced, Fire, and 1001 other such albums predated Sgt. Pepper, and even Strawberry Fields Forever, sometimes by as much as a full year. Also the Beatles were not active in the Bay Area bar rock scene, so the likes of The Grateful Dead, The Doors, and Strawberry Alarm Clock will spend at least some time psychodelic.

As long as Barrett is part of the original lineup of Pink Floyd, they'll be psychodelic too.

It's the direction of Deep Purple you'd have to look hard at.

Psychedelic is going to be... er... still great but... different. You'll just have to see.

(I HAVE ALREADY GIVEN TOO MUCH AWAY!)

A potential variation on this What If:

Robert Plant dies in his car accident in 1975. This knocks out Zeppelin at the height of their career, and I daresay makes them more popular in the long run. With Physical Graffiti as their last album, that makes Zep end on a much stronger note. Now, there may be some debate on whether or not Page has the balls to keep the band running without Plant, as he seemed to be of the impression that the band relied solely on his and Bonham's playing. Considering Bonham and Plant were childhood friends, though, I think Bonham wouldn't like that. So, let's just presume that this results in a Zeppelin break up, 1975.

At this time, the Who have just released Who By The Numbers, and have begun touring. Bonham and Moon being friends, I could see Bonham joining on the tour. Not as a side act, just like chilling with the Who and traveling around with them. Now, by this point, Moon was getting a little fat, and I believe he was still passing out and shit. So, it might not be unlikely for Bonham to maybe "fill in" for him, every so often.

This may seem like a trivial way to reach the exact same conclusion, but then you have to remember that now there's a chance of Bonham recording a track or two on Who Are You while Moon is passed out, and having some live playing experience with them before Moon's death. This would help the transition to Bonham much easier.

On a side note, apparently Moon's ex-wife dated the Keyboardist of Faces. It's not such a stretch to have her date Kenney Jones instead. With Moon pissed at Jones, there's no way in hell the Who would consider replacing Moon with him.

Bonham filling in for Moon after he passes out is WAY cooler than the lucky Joe-Schmo Everyman they got to fill in on that one show...

Well, feel free to use the Pink Floyd + Kevin Ayers idea if it fits.

In the late 60s I imagined an anarchic, whimsical Pink Floyd carrying on under the songwriting or Ayers/Barrett.

The crunch would come after the release of Atom Heart Mother, with Roger Waters pushing for the group to record his new song, but Ayers & Barrett knocking it back. ("Too long, too slow, too similar to the long song on the last album" they say)

The song becomes the title track of Roger Waters new band's debut album.. And indeed the name of the new band itself.

His new band is called "Echoes".

Ok, I've hijacked this enough now.. I'll move on...

I think I will! I'll have to better familiarize myself with Ayers to do him justice, but no worries... Thanks for the great idea!

I just wish I could find some way to keep Waters AND Barrett working in the group. I prefer earlier Pink Floyd to the post-Barrett songs as they just seem to be waaaaayyyy too long/boring and into themselves. If I'm not smoking weed, I want to hear a HOOK! Still, I can admit that it's excellent material and this idea needs to be explored.

Anyone is free to PM me their ideas for my thought-theft. You will be credited, of course!

 

[loneranger]

Random idea I had earlier:

A Who concert in Virginia, 1988. A freak accident happens on stage during a Who concert, which incapacitates John Bonham. There's kind of a deja vu moment, as the band decides to keep playing. They go through a song without a drummer, then, for the second time in career, Townshend asks anyone in the crowd if they can play the drums. None other than DAVE FUCKING GROHL comes out and fills in for him, playing the rest of the set with the group. Not only does he barely keep up though, he plays everything perfectly. His name spreads like wildfire, and he eventually joins in a band looking for a drummer - The Red Hot Chili Peppers.

 

[The Admiral Hook]

Random idea I had earlier:

A Who concert in Virginia, 1988. A freak accident happens on stage during a Who concert, which incapacitates John Bonham. There's kind of a deja vu moment, as the band decides to keep playing. They go through a song without a drummer, then, for the second time in career, Townshend asks anyone in the crowd if they can play the drums. None other than DAVE FUCKING GROHL comes out and fills in for him, playing the rest of the set with the group. Not only does he barely keep up though, he plays everything perfectly. His name spreads like wildfire, and he eventually joins in a band looking for a drummer - The Red Hot Chili Peppers.

...why didn't you PM this to me?!

You bastard, someone will steal this!

Wicked idea. Seriously!

 

[loneranger]

Another idea, if you guys have heard of It Might Get Loud, I could imagine an alternate version of it coming out, but with drummer's instead. It would have Bonham, some 80s drummer (Alex Van Halen?), and Dave Grohl. And it would be bad ass.