WI: Italo-Turkish War triggers WWI

The Italo-Turkish war and the subsequent Balkan Wars arguably did much to set the stage for WWI, but is it possible that the conflict could have itself become a continental conflagration?

There are two potential avenues to a general war. First, I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Von Hotzendorf was contemplating a pre-emptive strike against Italy during this conflict... an Austrian "intervention" against Italy, on land or sea, would IMO rather quickly escalate into a continental conflict.

The other possibility is if Bulgaria managed to take Constantinople in the First Balkan War, which would probably send the great powers into a general panic- a rash Russian mobilization/ultimatum in turn spiraling out into a string of mobilizations and counter-mobilizations much like the July Crisis.
 
There are two potential avenues to a general war. First, I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Von Hotzendorf was contemplating a pre-emptive strike against Italy during this conflict... an Austrian "intervention" against Italy, on land or sea, would IMO rather quickly escalate into a continental conflict.
What would be the pathway for this?

I know that in practice, things could get more complicated than this, but Austria-Hungary attacking Italy *is* just technically a civil war in the Triple Alliance with one alliance member attacking another. What in this situation is making it the Triple Entente's business to militarily intervene instead of keep sitting on the couch, eating popcorn, enjoying the shown, pointing fingers, and laughing at the discomfort of their rivals?

The other possibility is if Bulgaria managed to take Constantinople in the First Balkan War, which would probably send the great powers into a general panic- a rash Russian mobilization/ultimatum in turn spiraling out into a string of mobilizations and counter-mobilizations much like the July Crisis.
Who mobilizes against who in what order? Who declares war on who in what order? Who invades who in what order?

Already, compared to OTL, this type of start-up looks relatively bad for the CP, because the kick-off is Bulgarian-Ottoman fighting, making it *very* difficult to imagine that both Bulgaria and the Ottomans could both fight on the same, CP, side as in OTL's WWI. So minus one from the CP column, if not minus two. Of course, depending on the answers to the question in the paragraph above, maybe one of the powers even bigger or more important than them could end up on the opposite side.
 
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The Italo-Turkish war and the subsequent Balkan Wars arguably did much to set the stage for WWI, but is it possible that the conflict could have itself become a continental conflagration?
All 3 wars played a role in destabilizing Europe and creating the groundwork for WW1, but I don’t see them leading directly into WW1.

There are two potential avenues to a general war. First, I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Von Hotzendorf was contemplating a pre-emptive strike against Italy during this conflict... an Austrian "intervention" against Italy, on land or sea, would IMO rather quickly escalate into a continental conflict.
The Italian chief-of-staff during the war was Alberto Pollio. He was married to an Austrian noble woman, had served as a military attaché for years in Vienna, he was a Germanophile, a friend of Molke and Hotzendorf and a supporter of the Triple Alliance. Even if he did want to launch an attack against Italy in 1911-1912, he’s unlikely to get much support in Vienna or Berlin. Besides that, the only country with commitments to Italy and Austria-Hungary was Germany. A war between Italy and AH would stay between them.

The other possibility is if Bulgaria managed to take Constantinople in the First Balkan War, which would probably send the great powers into a general panic- a rash Russian mobilization/ultimatum in turn spiraling out into a string of mobilizations and counter-mobilizations much like the July Crisis.
I don’t know how feasible that was. I haven’t read enough about the 1st Balkan War, but from what I’ve seen it was a crushing victory. Even if Bulgaria was able to take Constantinople, the Great Powers aren’t going to let them keep it. Especially Britain. They’d most likely call a conference of the major European powers to settle the post-war borders with the Ottoman Empire keeping Constantinople and Eastern Thrace.
 
I don’t know how feasible that was. I haven’t read enough about the 1st Balkan War, but from what I’ve seen it was a crushing victory. Even if Bulgaria was able to take Constantinople, the Great Powers aren’t going to let them keep it. Especially Britain. They’d most likely call a conference of the major European powers to settle the post-war borders with the Ottoman Empire keeping Constantinople and Eastern Thrace.
Russia at the time threatened more direct action to try to get Bulgaria to stand down, they threatened to declare war on Bulgaria!
 
I didn't know that. Was that in the 1st or 2nd Balkan War?
The first one. In the second one they did oppose Bulgaria’s attack on it allies and favored the Serbs and Greeks and Romanians. However, oddly, when the Turks joined and attacked the Bulgarians, the Russians said ‘knock it off or we’ll attack you in the Caucasus’
 
All 3 wars played a role in destabilizing Europe and creating the groundwork for WW1, but I don’t see them leading directly into WW1.


The Italian chief-of-staff during the war was Alberto Pollio. He was married to an Austrian noble woman, had served as a military attaché for years in Vienna, he was a Germanophile, a friend of Molke and Hotzendorf and a supporter of the Triple Alliance. Even if he did want to launch an attack against Italy in 1911-1912, he’s unlikely to get much support in Vienna or Berlin. Besides that, the only country with commitments to Italy and Austria-Hungary was Germany. A war between Italy and AH would stay between them.


I don’t know how feasible that was. I haven’t read enough about the 1st Balkan War, but from what I’ve seen it was a crushing victory. Even if Bulgaria was able to take Constantinople, the Great Powers aren’t going to let them keep it. Especially Britain. They’d most likely call a conference of the major European powers to settle the post-war borders with the Ottoman Empire keeping Constantinople and Eastern Thrace.
It's all well and good for the great powers to demand Constantinople's return, but it's another matter to make it stick short of a war- the loss of Constantinople would IMO be taken as the dinner bell for a general collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and could easily lead to an "intervention" by Russia escalating out of hand.
 
It's all well and good for the great powers to demand Constantinople's return, but it's another matter to make it stick short of a war- the loss of Constantinople would IMO be taken as the dinner bell for a general collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and could easily lead to an "intervention" by Russia escalating out of hand.
I could imagine it being a 'dinner bell' for 'carving the Turkey'. Great powers each going for a sharing of the Ottoman lands after the seizure of the Ottoman capital, much like in OTL the small Balkan powers moved to carve up Rumelia. I also see Russia, highly interested in the the straits, possibly declaring war on Bulgaria to claw the straits/Constaninople from them. @Lee-Sensei brought Britain going to war w/ Bulgaria or threatening to, in order to get them to drop out.

Now those could be plausible military actions - a general carve-up of the Ottoman Empire, or somebody stomping on Bulgaria, but how would this cause WWI the way we know it, as a fight between the Entente and Central Powers. Or would it create a weird World War One between Russia and Britain? It might actually be hardest to bring Germany and/or France into such a war.
 
In terms of navy a war starting in late September 1911 in terms of dreadnoughts this is the balance of power

Britain 10 Battleships 8 building 5 Battlecruisers 5 building
Germany 7 Battleships 5 building 2 Battlecruisers 2 building
Russia Italy France and Austria 0 battleships
 
The first one. In the second one they did oppose Bulgaria’s attack on it allies and favored the Serbs and Greeks and Romanians. However, oddly, when the Turks joined and attacked the Bulgarians, the Russians said ‘knock it off or we’ll attack you in the Caucasus’
The Ottoman Empire was an old rival of Russia. That's part of the reason Britain wanted to prop it up during it's decline. To block Russian expansion into the Mediterranean.
 
It's all well and good for the great powers to demand Constantinople's return, but it's another matter to make it stick short of a war- the loss of Constantinople would IMO be taken as the dinner bell for a general collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and could easily lead to an "intervention" by Russia escalating out of hand.
Italy and the Balkan states perhaps. Russia too. I don't think most countries were eager to see the Ottoman Empire fall, because it was a stabilizing force in the region.

In terms of navy a war starting in late September 1911 in terms of dreadnoughts this is the balance of power

Britain 10 Battleships 8 building 5 Battlecruisers 5 building
Germany 7 Battleships 5 building 2 Battlecruisers 2 building
Russia Italy France and Austria 0 battleships
France not having any Battleships is kind of surprising to me.
 
I could imagine it being a 'dinner bell' for 'carving the Turkey'. Great powers each going for a sharing of the Ottoman lands after the seizure of the Ottoman capital, much like in OTL the small Balkan powers moved to carve up Rumelia. I also see Russia, highly interested in the the straits, possibly declaring war on Bulgaria to claw the straits/Constaninople from them. @Lee-Sensei brought Britain going to war w/ Bulgaria or threatening to, in order to get them to drop out.

Now those could be plausible military actions - a general carve-up of the Ottoman Empire, or somebody stomping on Bulgaria, but how would this cause WWI the way we know it, as a fight between the Entente and Central Powers. Or would it create a weird World War One between Russia and Britain? It might actually be hardest to bring Germany and/or France into such a war.
A war between Russia and Britain would probably move things away from Europe because of geography. It would probably move over to Central Asia. I'm not sure how this would expand to the other Europeans though. Japan might enter to expand at Russia's expense. It would take the British a while to build an army capable of confronting Russia, but I'm not sure how capable Russia is of supporting army groups in the region. I can't imagine the infrastructure of Central Asia is that good. The biggest loser might be France, since it leaves them isolated on the continent again.
 
France not having any Battleships is kind of surprising to me.
I'm quoting dreadnoughts only. The first French dreadnoughts were the Courbets commissioning in 1913 and 1914.

The Danton's were the finest predreadnoughts ever built and were coming into commission in 1911 but they hadn't made the jump to dreadnoughts. They still had a mixed main battery (4x12 inch guns and 12x9.4 inch guns).
 

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Who mobilizes against who in what order? Who declares war on who in what order? Who invades who in what order?

Already, compared to OTL, this type of start-up looks relatively bad for the CP, because the kick-off is Bulgarian-Ottoman fighting, making it *very* difficult to imagine that both Bulgaria and the Ottomans could both fight on the same, CP, side as in OTL's WWI. So minus one from the CP column, if not minus two. Of course, depending on the answers to the question in the paragraph above, maybe one of the powers even bigger or more important than them could end up on the opposite side.
Romania has a secret treaty with the Austrians, so might actually honour it if Bulgaria is on the other side from the start
 
My thinking is that the fall of Constantinople would trigger a secession crisis in the Armenian and Arab provinces of the Empire with Britain and Russia stirring the pot and grabbing whatever they can.

Russia could IMO quite plausibly panic and attempt to force the issue of the Dardanelles with a coup de main, as if it comes down to it I"m not convinced that the Tsar wouldn't at least try to press his claim through force of arms; the most obvious course would be a repeat of the 1878 Russo-Tutkish war with Russian offensives in Anatolia and across the Danube. Romania is tied to the Triple Alliance but might be enticed into permitting Russian troops to cross with territorial concessions (Bessarabia perhaps, if not gains at Bulgaria's expense; Russia may be willing to give that up for the Straits) or given the Belgium treatment.

Austria would quite plausibly be dragged in over Albania (both Austria and Italy had designs there and both threatened Serbia with war to get them out of Albania) or the Straits, or failing that an attack on Romania would potentially trigger the Triple Alliance.
 
The Italo-Turkish war and the subsequent Balkan Wars arguably did much to set the stage for WWI, but is it possible that the conflict could have itself become a continental conflagration?

There are two potential avenues to a general war. First, I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Von Hotzendorf was contemplating a pre-emptive strike against Italy during this conflict... an Austrian "intervention" against Italy, on land or sea, would IMO rather quickly escalate into a continental conflict.

The other possibility is if Bulgaria managed to take Constantinople in the First Balkan War, which would probably send the great powers into a general panic- a rash Russian mobilization/ultimatum in turn spiraling out into a string of mobilizations and counter-mobilizations much like the July Crisis.
Even though I've posed skeptical questions about how the Italo-Turkish war could lead to a 'World War One' in a 'recognizable' form of Triple Entente versus Central Powers, I am glad you @The Undead Martyr started this thread and brought up this war, because it is an interesting war and has interesting alternate history possibilities from diplomatic complications and third party interventions.

I think any possible complications, coming in the first instance from the Italo-Turkish war, deserve a step-by-step, and not rushed, consideration.

@The Undead Martyr brought up two already:

Your first one - Von Hotzendorf's preemptive strike against Italy, is of course an interesting escalation and complication of the Italo-Turkish War.

I've heard @Lee-Sensei's argument that the presence of the pro-Triple Alliance Italian Chief of Staff Alberto Pollio protects against an Austro-Italian clash, but I am not wholly convinced:
The Italian chief-of-staff during the war was Alberto Pollio. He was married to an Austrian noble woman, had served as a military attaché for years in Vienna, he was a Germanophile, a friend of Molke and Hotzendorf and a supporter of the Triple Alliance. Even if he did want to launch an attack against Italy in 1911-1912, he’s unlikely to get much support in Vienna or Berlin.
It is true Pollio was pro-Triple Alliance and appreciated by the partners, and he continued Triple Alliance related planning, and he conveniently died before Italy made its military decisions in WWI. But his presence had not stopped the negative slide in Austro-Italian diplomatic relations and build-up of bad feeling between the two and reduction of German and Austrian trust in Italy as a whole. Pollio's term was 1908 until July 1914 when he died. So his term coincided with the deterioration of Austro-Italian relations during and after the Bosnian Crisis. Regardless of any Pollio-Hotzendorff friendship, Hotzendorff at least twice advocated preemptive attack against Italy, once in 1909 and and once in 1911. And per wiki, despite his support for the alliance, Pollio began anti-Austrian contingency planning.

Of course Hotzendorff would not find any support in *Berlin* or Germany for an attack on Italy. For an attack on Italy in 1911, Hotzendorff would have had to convince the Emperor in Vienna, both that the operation would be a sure success, and that the best approach would not to be to ask Germany for permission it would be reluctant and unlikely to give, but to present Berlin with a fait accompli, let Austria's success speak for itself, and beg German forgiveness after the fact.

I suspect the Ottoman Empire would be quite happy with Austro-Hungarian intervention in the war, and motivated to resist longer, while Italy of course would be enraged but also distressed.

Germany would be quite unhappy in principle, even if many segments of German public opinion felt double-dealing Italians (who'd voted the wrong way at Algeciras) felt they kind of deserved it.

So with an Austro-Ottoman-Italian war now going on, the next most likely country to intervene is Germany....but not at all as a combatant, but as a hectoring mediator, vigorously attempting to stop the fighting between the two other members of the Triple Alliance as soon as possible, and trying to broker an inclusive peace with the Ottoman Empire too, seeing if that Empire could be brought into closer ties with Germany as well. It is a tall order diplomatically, but that is what they will be working on.

I do agree with this sentiment of @Lee-Sensei though:
A war between Italy and AH would stay between them.
...in terms of Russia, France, and Britain being cautious of getting involved. When I've discussed the potential for an Austro-Italian war in 1911 with I believe @lukedalton I think he's been very skeptical it could be contained, so I suppose his view may be different, and he may think that Russia and France might see the Austro-Italian fighting an an unmissable opportunity to fight the Central Powers when the Triple Alliance is divided, and feel like they have to intervene to show support for Italy to not let it get crushed, and in saving Italy, they get an ally forever, and steal Italy from Germany and Austria. But he would have to speak for himself.

The states of the Balkans would be very interested in the outcome of the Italo-Austrian-Ottoman war, but may be too intimidated to face a two front war with both Austria and the Turks. (at least the Serbs and Montenegrins might). But they'd really wish them to lose. Russian elite/popular sentiment would hope for Ottoman and Austrian defeat.

Russia would also suffer from, and be irritated by, any prolongation of the war caused by encouragement of continued Ottoman resistance to Italy, because that keeps the closure of the straits to Russian merchant traffic as well as warships going on longer as well, reducing grain export revenues and encouraging binge vodka drinking.

The Balkan League members Greece and Bulgaria are relatively less exposed to Austria, so they, at least theoretically, could still push to start the Balkan War basically on schedule. Even the Greeks would need to factor in the Austrian navy however as an issue. If the whole Balkan League were bold enough to attack the Ottomans in 1912, despite Austrian engagement with Italy, Romania would be instantly encouraged and supported by Austria in attacked Bulgaria's north to claim southern Dobruja.

Perhaps, if the Balkan League is so bold as to engage against the Ottomans, even with the Austro-Italian war going on, and the Romanians attack the Bulgarians, and before long the Austrians probably engage against the Montenegrins and Serbs (for attacking the Turks)........this, this just might be the thing that gets Russia to mobilize, to threaten Romania and Austria on behalf of its Balkan allies, and forces Germany to consider whether it will stand by an prop up its Austrian ally (which means two front war, most efficiently prosecuted via Schieffen-Moltke plan) or not.

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The other possibility @The Undead Martyr mentioned isn't directly from the Italo-Ottoman War, but it is escalation based on a Russian ultimatum/mobilization against Bulgaria, over the possibility it might take Constantinople [because Russia felt like nobody else should be able to take from the Turks, except themselves], from some point after at least the first Balkan War started.

I voiced my opinions on that one earlier, but before we get into escalatory possibilities of the Balkan war, we should keep looking at the Italo-Turkish war.
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For example --
Might Russia have intervened in the Italo-Turkish war, or at least threatened too?

I can think of the Russians intervening for grand, ambitious motive, or intervening for a limited, pragmatic motive.

-The grand, ambitious motive, of intervening for the express purpose of gaining major territories from the Ottomans like Armenia, Trebizond/Pontus, and the Straits is actually the less likely case. But out of what the Ottomans had, those territories would be what Russia would have an interest in, and seeing the Italians given carte blanche by the rest of Europe, both European alliance sets, to grab a chunk of the Ottoman Empire, Libya, could be an inspiration for a Russian government inclined to wishful thinking.

The Russian government of late 1911, early 1912 likely could mount a pretty effective Caucasus campaign against Turkey, penetrating to significant depth into the coastal and interior Armenian plurality provinces of eastern Anatolia. Russia at this time would still lack the ability to take Constantinople and the straits by amphibious storm.

Russia making this move would impress and alarm its friends and foes at the same time. None of Germany nor Austria had an alliance commitment to the Ottoman Empire, but they would have to decide if heavy Russian blows, aimed close to the Turkish heartland and at the Turkish capital, and likely to signal a partition of Turkey that Italy and Entente powers, but not Germany, would collect booty from, is an unacceptable shift in the balance of power and requires German-Austrian decisive action to save the Ottoman Empire. Of course Germany could call a conference and try to stop the war. Trying to use military force to affect the situation in the Middle East directly isn't that practical for Germany. It's military option is using the Schlieffen plan to take out two major potential partitioners of the Ottoman domain - Russia and France.

Britain and France would have to worry about Russian competition oncc

-A more pragmatic motive for Russian intervention could be to get the Ottoman Empire to simply concede to Italian terms (ceding Libya, and possibly Rhodes) right away, to end the war ASAP, so that the straits may be reopened for commerce post-haste. If this is the aim, Russia may not have any demands for territorial concessions from the Ottomans at this time, even if it is willing to invade and occupy Ottoman lands to put pressure on them to end the war. Reopening the straits is important for Russian commerce and the economy.

Of course regardless of whether Russia wants to take a big bite and practically bring down the empire, or just end the war quickly with minimal change, the Balkan states are pretty likely to take their DoW as an signal for them to move to take over Ottoman Rumelia in Europe.

--Another thing that might have happened is if the Italians had been more ambitious and had more fronts besides Libya. For instance, what if the Italians sent a force across the straits of Otranto to take Albania. It is hard to see the Serbs and Austrians and Greeks not get involved after that. What if the Italians started a front in Arabia- perhaps in Yemen or the Persian Gulf coast
 
As far as broadening the war goes I tIhink Albania is the ticket. As I recall, the Italians sent their navy into the Aegean to pressure Tuekey into signing, and this was a major factor pressing Greece et al to war.

There were also incidents with neutral (French I think) shipping being interdicted,, as Iraly was quite anxious to sever the Ottomans' supply lines. A Maine incident is not implausible though I do think that the Rwgia Marina is not so disgraceful negligent as to permit a Dogger Bank style messup.

Perhaps Italy getting more succesful could lead them to expanding the war aims towards Albania- that would quite possibly trigger an Austrian intercession.

Russia would jump in from a mix of ambition and desperation, probably in response to further escalations or major Ottoman defeats.
 
The reason I keep bouncing between the two wars is that they are fundamentally related; Italy's war goals were limited to Libya because they had no appetite for bringing the other great powers down on them. Conversely, the Turks weren't going to keep their hand caught in the cookie jar once the Balkan League starts mobilizing.

I'm not quite sure how to get the Italians to escalate for Albania when they didn't make that play OTL; I think it's more likely that diplomatic blustering by one power or another would first trigger that spiral (i.e., an Austrian diplomatic guarantee of the Ottomans' territorial integrity in Europe). Failing that, a faster intercession by one or more of the Balkan powers- perhaps Greece or Bulgaria make a play independently of the other two- might also do the trick.
 
There were also incidents with neutral (French I think) shipping being interdicted,, as Iraly was quite anxious to sever the Ottomans' supply lines. A Maine incident is not implausible though I do think that the Rwgia Marina is not so disgraceful negligent as to permit a Dogger Bank style messup.
Interesting idea! I never thought of that prospect of Italy provoking another great power at sea.

Perhaps Italy getting more succesful could lead them to expanding the war aims towards Albania- that would quite possibly trigger an Austrian intercession.
Agree

I'm not quite sure how to get the Italians to escalate for Albania when they didn't make that play OTL
Also a good point.
 
I don’t know how feasible that was. I haven’t read enough about the 1st Balkan War, but from what I’ve seen it was a crushing victory. Even if Bulgaria was able to take Constantinople, the Great Powers aren’t going to let them keep it. Especially Britain. They’d most likely call a conference of the major European powers to settle the post-war borders with the Ottoman Empire keeping Constantinople and Eastern Thrace.

While I agree that the Great Powers wouldn't allow Bulgaria to keep Constantinople would the city really be returned to the Ottoman Empire? Even in OTL the Ottotamans were the Sick Man of Europe; here they have shown themselves so weak they were unable to keep control of their own capital from a small to mid sized power.

Maybe Constantinople could be some sort of international city jointly run by the Great Powers?
 
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