WI: Iroquois ally with the United States during the Revolutionary War

[TMS2224]

What if, during the American Revolutionary War, the Iroquois allied with the Americans against the British?

In OTL it was the other way around, which led to their destruction after the end of the war. How will their being on America's side affect their relations with America? Will they survive better?

 

[BBadolato]

They wouldn't gain anything from it, they would still get treated bad anyway. The British made a proclamation of where the colonists could and could not settle, which help relations with people such as Iroquois. The American's wouldn't have a reason to want do the same when they wanted the land.

 

[Flubber]

In OTL it was the other way around, which led to their destruction after the end of the war. How will their being on America's side affect their relations with America? Will they survive better?

Sadly, the Iroquois are on the wrong side of the demographic equation, their way of life requires more land per capita than the Europeans' does, and there's no way the Revolutionaries are going to set aside western lands for the Iroquois when access to those lands were one of the causes of the war.

 

[general]

Also, it is my understanding that at least part of the Confederation did support the rebels - and got the same treatment as the ones that supported the British.

 

[Japhy]

In OTL it was the other way around, which led to their destruction after the end of the war. How will their being on America's side affect their relations with America? Will they survive better?

1) Sullivan's March wasn't after the war, and 2) There was no chance the United States is going to respect any treaty they made with allies in Western New York, just as they never respected a treaty with any other ally, anywhere.

 

[Tripwire]

They'd still get shoved onto reservations, just maybe without warfare involved. As general said, some of the Iroquois did side with the United States, and that's what happened.

 

[othyrsyde]

Like everyone says, it wouldn't have saved us.

Remember too, those originally fighting for the British and Americans were actually factions within the League who had personal loyalties for either side, but eventually pushed the 6 tribes into a civil war as much as our warriors fought for the red or bluecoats. It wasn't until after Sulivan's Trail that the Haudenosaunee officially sided with the British for obvious reasons.

At best for the standard outcome of the ARW, is if some factions in the British lobbied for us to be included in the treaty negotiations or something, and possibly worked out a deal for us to have a genuinely autonomous state within British North America (Thande's Look to the West has a good example of this, but not a result of this specific scenario).

Also, we were in a state of serious division and decay even before the ARW ripped us to shreds. I'd elaborate, but I'm too tired and have to go to bed for work tomorrow.

 

[oshron]

Also, it is my understanding that at least part of the Confederation did support the rebels - and got the same treatment as the ones that supported the British.

namely Ratonhnhaké:ton sorry, but you all know that i just can't pass up an Assassin's Creed joke

in general, i have to agree. the Iroquois as a whole might have gotten a bit more prestige if they'd helped the Revolutionaries, but i can't see it helping them in any case. the US did this all over the place: as soon as their indigenous allies had helped them achieve their goal, they were dropped like an angry possum

 

[Tripwire]

namely Ratonhnhaké:ton sorry, but you all know that i just can't pass up an Assassin's Creed joke

in general, i have to agree. the Iroquois as a whole might have gotten a bit more prestige if they'd helped the Revolutionaries, but i can't see it helping them in any case. the US did this all over the place: as soon as their indigenous allies had helped them achieve their goal, they were dropped like an angry possum

Settlers are going to flood into sparsely populated native lands no matter how good relations are between the tribe and the federal government, and the federal government is never going to try and stop them. Stopping them would be very difficult and expensive even if they did care enough about "savages" to try and protect them.

 

[oshron]

Settlers are going to flood into sparsely populated native lands no matter how good relations are between the tribe and the federal government, and the federal government is never going to try and stop them. Stopping them would be very difficult and expensive even if they did care enough about "savages" to try and protect them.

exactly what i was talking about, in agreement with what others have posted

 

[Evil Opus]

They would eventually be wiped out as in OTL anyway. The federal government broke pretty much every treaty it ever signed with a Native American tribe, American ally or not. Perhaps their extermination is pushed back by a decade or so, but it still happens.

 

[Faeelin]

Also, it is my understanding that at least part of the Confederation did support the rebels - and got the same treatment as the ones that supported the British.

The truth is actually a bit more complicated. I really recommend Divided Ground for anyone who wants to learn about the Iroquois during the Revolutionary Era.

They would eventually be wiped out as in OTL anyway. The federal government broke pretty much every treaty it ever signed with a Native American tribe, American ally or not. Perhaps their extermination is pushed back by a decade or so, but it still happens.

Guys, Iroquois still exist.

 

[The Kiat]

If they all allied with the US, then the Confederacy might be able to negotiate a deal to keep their land. Think about it; give settlers a choice between upstate New York and lands out in the Ohio Country (or Kentucky and Tennessee for that matter), which one you think they'll choice?

 

[othyrsyde]

Guys, Iroquois still exist.

As me and NothingNow demonstrate.

 

[Tripwire]

They would eventually be wiped out as in OTL anyway. The federal government broke pretty much every treaty it ever signed with a Native American tribe, American ally or not. Perhaps their extermination is pushed back by a decade or so, but it still happens.

Uh, the Iroquois Nations are alive and active organizations, and there's more Iroquois now than there were in 1776.

I don't know where people still get the idea that "there are no Native Americans left" from.

 

[Mosshadow]

Uh, the Iroquois Nations are alive and active organizations, and there's more Iroquois now than there were in 1776.

I don't know where people still get the idea that "there are no Native Americans left" from.

Well they are relatively weak and small in proportion to the rest of the country compared to 1770

 

[Faeelin]

Well they are relatively weak and small in proportion to the rest of the country compared to 1770

There actually weren't that many Iroquois left in the 1770s; there were like 400 Mohawks.

 

[Westphalian]

There actually weren't that many Iroquois left in the 1770s; there were like 400 Mohawks.

Yes, AFAIK, the time around 1700 marked the high point of Iroquois expansion.

But that certainly does not mean they settled all this territory, it was their hunting area and even in that regard it overlapped with many other claims by native tribes and bands.

 

[thekingsguard]

Maybe we see them get a state carved out of Northern New York? Likely still sees massive settlement by Whites, but maybe the Iroquois are allowed to stay?

 

[Japhy]

Maybe we see them get a state carved out of Northern New York? Likely still sees massive settlement by Whites, but maybe the Iroquois are allowed to stay?

Much like any other "Indian State" ideas all that means is that eventually they're overwhelmed by White Settlers who will take their land, co-opt the government and see them destroyed.