WI Iraqi Army not disbanded

What if instead it was incorporated into whatever new regime was being set-up post invasion. Would that butterfly away ISIS? Provide any sort of stability south of Kurdistan?
 
The disbanding of the Iraqi army was a monumental misstep in reestablishing Iraq after the invasion. While the office corps would understandably be affected, a large number of the enlisted men couldn't get any other job the could provide for them and their families or they just weren't really good at anything else. So what happens when you take men who only know how to kill people, make them deal with surrendering to a foreign power (some perhaps seeing said power in a negative religious light), then just cut them loose? You get OTL.

The butterflies of not demolishing the army would go far in making the new Iraqi army an effective fighting force and would keep a number of them from flocking to the open arms of al-Qaeda, Muqtada al-Sadr, and ISIS. By no means would it prevent these forces from being established or becoming a substantial threat but I doubt you'd see the level of brutality that we saw in 2004-2007.
 
It sounds good, and might have worked.

On the other hand, very many of those lower rankers had also been used as bully boys to keep the Shi'a in line. I know this, I was there in 2003; I worked with the units processing the EPWs, and with many Sunni and Shi'a civilians who gave me the same info (though vastly differing attitudes towards the practice).

So what happens when you tell the Shi'a to accept this? What happens when you tell the existing grunts to accept Shi'a recruits into their units?

It simply isn't as uncomplicated as you're trying to make it. There are potentially catastrophic pitfalls involved.

In retrospect, it is unlikely to have been worse, but it might have been as bad. It might not have been politically acceptable to the Shi'a to begin with.
 
It sounds good, and might have worked.

On the other hand, very many of those lower rankers had also been used as bully boys to keep the Shi'a in line. I know this, I was there in 2003; I worked with the units processing the EPWs, and with many Sunni and Shi'a civilians who gave me the same info (though vastly differing attitudes towards the practice).

So what happens when you tell the Shi'a to accept this? What happens when you tell the existing grunts to accept Shi'a recruits into their units?

It simply isn't as uncomplicated as you're trying to make it. There are potentially catastrophic pitfalls involved.

In retrospect, it is unlikely to have been worse, but it might have been as bad. It might not have been politically acceptable to the Shi'a to begin with.

Would a military-wise Apartheid, namely deploy the old Sunni forces to the Sunni neighborhoods, and the new Shia one to Shia neighborhoods, work? As in, not triggering sectarian violence nor a civil war?
 
Would a military-wise Apartheid, namely deploy the old Sunni forces to the Sunni neighborhoods, and the new Shia one to Shia neighborhoods, work? As in, not triggering sectarian violence nor a civil war?

I'm afraid they'd end up with two competing armies in that case. Civil war is exactly what I'd expect in that event.
 
Suddenly disbanding the Iraqi army was indeed a huge mistake, but it's also a mistake to believe that everything would have gone well if it had been kept together. To put it mildly, I'm highly skeptical that a Shia government and Saddam's army would be able to accept each other.
 
Suddenly disbanding the Iraqi army was indeed a huge mistake, but it's also a mistake to believe that everything would have gone well if it had been kept together. To put it mildly, I'm highly skeptical that a Shia government and Saddam's army would be able to accept each other.

You'd also have human-rights groups complaining about impunity, too.
 
To what extent was the Iraqi Army intact as an organization when it was officially disbanded?

I seem to recall hearing that most of the Army's personnel had deserted during or shortly following the invasion. If this is accurate, it's more a question of "re-forming the Iraqi Army" rather than "not disbanding the Iraqi Army".
 
To what extent was the Iraqi Army intact as an organization when it was officially disbanded?

I seem to recall hearing that most of the Army's personnel had deserted during or shortly following the invasion. If this is accurate, it's more a question of "re-forming the Iraqi Army" rather than "not disbanding the Iraqi Army".

The units i knew anything about were horribly understrength, with lots of desertions. Many of the deserters turned themselves in later, once they realized we weren't going to hold them. Their morale was utterly shot, and to be honest I think the majority wanted nothing further to do with the army, they just wanted to be processed out -- maybe they thought they'd eventually be persecuted unless they got processed out and disappeared back home, maybe they were still just shocked. I dunno.
 
The units i knew anything about were horribly understrength, with lots of desertions. Many of the deserters turned themselves in later, once they realized we weren't going to hold them. Their morale was utterly shot, and to be honest I think the majority wanted nothing further to do with the army, they just wanted to be processed out -- maybe they thought they'd eventually be persecuted unless they got processed out and disappeared back home, maybe they were still just shocked. I dunno.

I see the middle way here as keeping the officers cadre intact while they gradually demobilized the conscripts. Keeping the leaders under discipline and responsible for weapons accountability, behavior of the ranks, and their welfare would be the criteria by which the officers would be judged by the masters.

Discharge of the ranks would be as slow as practical to keep the men under supervision of a sorts, and busy cleaning up the streets or other war damage. This keeps a number of the men in a semblance of gainful employment, paid, and allows the sorting out of the leaders cadre for establishemnt of a smaller army.

The Shia/Sunni problem cant be solved by simple actions. That requires incredibly adroit diplomacy and leadership within Iraq. Something it is unlikely the US, or at least the Bush administration of those years could provide.
 
This WI touches on the fundamental problem with Iraq. There really isn't an Iraq to begin with! The country is just lines drawn up by the British that lumped together a bunch of different Arab tribes with different takes on Culture and Islam and in a few cases, different religions, and in the case of the Kurds they aren't even Arab.

Iraq without a cruel dictator like Saddam forcing the damn thing together is going to blow up no matter what you do. It's as simple as that.
 
I see the middle way here as keeping the officers cadre intact while they gradually demobilized the conscripts. Keeping the leaders under discipline and responsible for weapons accountability, behavior of the ranks, and their welfare would be the criteria by which the officers would be judged by the masters.

Discharge of the ranks would be as slow as practical to keep the men under supervision of a sorts, and busy cleaning up the streets or other war damage. This keeps a number of the men in a semblance of gainful employment, paid, and allows the sorting out of the leaders cadre for establishemnt of a smaller army.

The Shia/Sunni problem cant be solved by simple actions. That requires incredibly adroit diplomacy and leadership within Iraq. Something it is unlikely the US, or at least the Bush administration of those years could provide.

What you described would alleviate certain symptoms, it would not address the underlying problems. And I doubt very strongly whether any Western nation under any leadership could grapple successfully with the underlying problems: Bush-bashing is popular and (I think) somewhat merited, but it is really just a cop-out.
 
To what extent was the Iraqi Army intact as an organization when it was officially disbanded?

I seem to recall hearing that most of the Army's personnel had deserted during or shortly following the invasion. If this is accurate, it's more a question of "re-forming the Iraqi Army" rather than "not disbanding the Iraqi Army".

The units i knew anything about were horribly understrength, with lots of desertions.

That's how Bremer defends his most widely criticized decision to this day - there was barely any army left, ergo the "disbanding" was academic and its effects are overrated. It's a fair enough argument.

But....meh. I'm inclined to believe that Bremer was a fuckup and incompetent hack, so I don't completely buy that. They were more concerned about "the specter of Saddam" than about -ahem- keeping the country stable. Also, this:

The interviews show that while Mr. Bush endorsed Mr. Bremer’s plan in the May 22 meeting, the decision was made without thorough consultations within government, and without the counsel of the secretary of state or the senior American commander in Iraq, said the commander, Lt. Gen. David D. McKiernan. The decree by Mr. Bremer, who is known as Jerry, prompted bitter infighting within the government and the military, with recriminations continuing to this day.

Mr. Powell, who views the decree as a major blunder, later asked Condoleezza Rice, who was serving as Mr. Bush’s national security adviser, for an explanation.

“I talked to Rice and said, ‘Condi, what happened?’ ” he recalled. “And her reaction was: ‘I was surprised too, but it is a decision that has been made and the president is standing behind Jerry’s decision. Jerry is the guy on the ground.’ And there was no further debate about it.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/world/middleeast/17bremer.html?fta=y&_r=0

Oh that is a stellar decision making process right there. Eat your heart out, EXCOMM. Praise be to Allah that we didn't elect someone like this while the Soviets were around.
 
This WI touches on the fundamental problem with Iraq. There really isn't an Iraq to begin with! The country is just lines drawn up by the British that lumped together a bunch of different Arab tribes with different takes on Culture and Islam and in a few cases, different religions, and in the case of the Kurds they aren't even Arab.

Iraq without a cruel dictator like Saddam forcing the damn thing together is going to blow up no matter what you do. It's as simple as that.

Precisely. The Ottomans didn't expect Shi'a and Sunni to get along politically, and in their system the two didn't really need to. Groups had enough autonomy to run their own shows as long as they paid their taxes, and the Ottoms didn't allow any sort of representational government, so Shi'a and Sunni weren't put into a political bullring where they would inevitably strive with one another.

Bush's failing in Iraq was largely because of bad policy and judgement, but the British inheritance of an Iraqi state is the real insuperable problem. Imagine George Bush redrawing the borders of the Mideast with a crayon -- that's what the British did, and they demonstrably made no better a job of it than Bush would've.
 
Would a military-wise Apartheid, namely deploy the old Sunni forces to the Sunni neighborhoods, and the new Shia one to Shia neighborhoods, work? As in, not triggering sectarian violence nor a civil war?

That's probably the opposite of what should be helpful. Dividing the military in this way creates in effect two different militaries for the two halves of the country, which is very rarely smart and in this case probably fosters sectarian issues.

Honestly I'd say you're better off integrating the grunts immediately (whatever discipline problems and trickle of Sunnis into terror groups is negligible compared to OTL), and forcing the old officers to go through a reeducation process with new Shiite and Kurdish cadets (and of course Sunnis as well) trained at a school that is partnered to West Point. Essentially try to make the army into Iraqs first truly national institution. Of course the senior military officials just need to be purged, they're too much of a threat to the new government to be left in charge of anything more important than retirement planning.

A good possibility here for what to do with the army while the officers are being integrated is probably to put them to work (paid obviously) rebuilding Iraqs shattered infrastructure and probably also updating most of it. That way they're both busy and getting paid to do necessary work.
 
This WI touches on the fundamental problem with Iraq. There really isn't an Iraq to begin with! The country is just lines drawn up by the British that lumped together a bunch of different Arab tribes with different takes on Culture and Islam and in a few cases, different religions, and in the case of the Kurds they aren't even Arab.

Iraq without a cruel dictator like Saddam forcing the damn thing together is going to blow up no matter what you do. It's as simple as that.

No. It really isn't. Iraq as a nation makes a perfect ammount of sense, the pieces of the empire that it was built out of where always heavily economically tied together with the centre at Baghdad.
 
That's how Bremer defends his most widely criticized decision to this day - there was barely any army left, ergo the "disbanding" was academic and its effects are overrated. It's a fair enough argument.

But....meh. I'm inclined to believe that Bremer was a fuckup and incompetent hack, so I don't completely buy that. They were more concerned about "the specter of Saddam" than about -ahem- keeping the country stable.

An incompetent fuckup sometimes gets it right. In the case of the Ba'athist Army (and that's exactly what it was, the tool of the Ba'athist regime; it is a horrible misnomer to call it the "Iraqi" Army), leaving it intact would have immediately wrecked any chance for Shi'a-Sunni cooperation. Plus, it was utterly wrecked as an effective organization -- leaning on a broken reed just isn't a good plan.

If you want political stability in Iraq, there are three choices:

1) split it up like the British should've done (better yet, they should've pulled out and just let the inhabitants sort it out). They'll fight it out until they've established borders.

2) set up one side or the other to run a brutal authoritarian regime which holds down the other side by force. That's what Saddam's regime was, and it was ugly and wrong and dangerous, but it worked.

3) hope that a feeling of national cohesion and sectarian-political tolerance magically takes hold (it won't). *

Bush's failing is that he didn't recognize the impossibility of the third, wouldn't challenge the first, and couldn't abide the second.



* Note: I typed "sectarian-political" because in this and some other regions, I believe the two are, at least for the foreseeable future, inextricably entwined.

Edit: I revised my Note because as originally stated it provided grounds for unprofitable vituperation.
 
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No. It really isn't. Iraq as a nation makes a perfect ammount of sense, the pieces of the empire that it was built out of where always heavily economically tied together with the centre at Baghdad.

Only in one sense. They were economically tied together, but political authority was never left up to the competing sects to fight over under the Ottomans; that was the only way to keep (relative) peace. The British failed to understand the implications of that as badly as the Bush administration did.
 
An incompetent fuckup sometimes gets it right. In the case of the Ba'athist Army (and that's exactly what it was, the tool of the Ba'athist regime; it is a horrible misnomer to call it the "Iraqi" Army), leaving it intact would have immediately wrecked any chance for Shi'a-Sunni cooperation. Plus, it was utterly wrecked as an effective organization -- leaning on a broken reed just isn't a good plan.

If you want political stability in Iraq, there are three choices:

1) split it up like the British should've done (better yet, they should've pulled out and just let the inhabitants sort it out). They'll fight it out until they've established borders.

2) set up one side or the other to run a brutal authoritarian regime which holds down the other side by force. That's what Saddam's regime was, and it was ugly and wrong and dangerous, but it worked.

3) hope that a feeling of national cohesion and sectarian-political tolerance magically takes hold (it won't). *

Bush's failing is that he didn't recognize the impossibility of the third, wouldn't challenge the first, and couldn't abide the second.



* Note: I typed "sectarian-political" because in the region, the two are inextricably entwined. Islam has been a "political religion" since it's inception. Christianity was too, in the Later Roman Empire days and long after, but has lost a large part of that linkage. Thankfully.

I honestly think that this assumes far too much that Iraq is "destined to fall apart", more than anything else Iraqs turmoil can be attributed to the absolute collapse of infrastructure and services post invasion leading to a situation where destitution and poverty were running rampant and where sectarian conflict is a certainty. National cohesion isn't going to come magically, but making steps to make sure that everyone's fed, that the lights are on for as much of the day as is possible, and that there's running water working 24/7 would do a hell of a lot to make the people of Iraq satisfied with the new status quo. And yes, that would probably be horribly expensive, but it would certainly mean that the house of cards is in the very least glued together and attached together with scotch tape.
 
I honestly think that this assumes far too much that Iraq is "destined to fall apart", more than anything else Iraqs turmoil can be attributed to the absolute collapse of infrastructure and services post invasion leading to a situation where destitution and poverty were running rampant and where sectarian conflict is a certainty. National cohesion isn't going to come magically, but making steps to make sure that everyone's fed, that the lights are on for as much of the day as is possible, and that there's running water working 24/7 would do a hell of a lot to make the people of Iraq satisfied with the new status quo. And yes, that would probably be horribly expensive, but it would certainly mean that the house of cards is in the very least glued together and attached together with scotch tape.

Hope is good unless it leads one to pursue impossible solutions.

The root cause of Iraq's problems is a demonstrably insuperable (in the short to near term) sectarian division. a division that is centuries older than the post invasion mess.

It has come out because the traditional methods of keeping peace in Iraq just aren't acceptable to Western idealists. Those methods were: a brutal political state with one group keeping the other down, and the Ottoman rule which forbid representative government and thus gave the sects no reservoir of authority to fight over.

Incidentally, I used to think exactly as you do. It was actually rather heart-wrenching to give up those ideals; I truly like most Iraqis I've gotten to know, and wish their region well.

But being fed and employed and having running water won't touch the root cause. You are really not giving enough "credit" to the strength of sectarian division in Iraq.

Consider a truly passionate patriot in the War of Independence (or the English Civil War, etc). Would he give up his struggle if offered clean water, employment and good food? Somehow I think not.

But I realize that I can't convince you. We'll just have to differ on this.

Edit: I wish the idealists well, if their efforts can help solve the problems in Iraq (without causing further harm). But I don't think they can -- certainly not until they admit what the root issue is. I certainly haven't seen any evidence that the Iraqis think that sort of solution will work. If they did, they'd have been working together to overcome the post invasion mess to create the very situation you describe. But another goal is more crucial...

Second edit: upon further reflection -- and please understand that I mean this in a kind way -- i think your solution to Iraqis feeling dissatisfied with the "new status quo" boils down to money: money for infrastructure, money for electricity, money for clean water and food and wages. And certainly those would alleviate the physical distress. But some problems, especially ideological ones, cannot be fixed by money. I think this is a common misconception among people who personally feel no intensely divisive ideological imperatives: we overestimate "physical circumstances as cause" a bit too much. Just my thinking, if I'm misreading your argument, I apologize.
 
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