WI in 1588 Phillip II of Spain deposes Elizabeth I of England?

[Johnnyreb]

OK, I just thought the British historians were rather uncharitable to M-S. For some reason, it did not cross my mind that Spanish historians might be uncharitable as well!

It still does not invalidate my proposition that the fire-ship attack was the key or POD. If the British fleet could not stop the Armada getting up the Channel, suppose they had embarked Parma's army and sailed for England still in good order? I doubt the British fleet would have been able to stop them then either.

BTW, I found my old copy of Pavane in the library.

 

[Thande]

OK, I just thought the British historians were rather uncharitable to M-S. For some reason, it did not cross my mind that Spanish historians might be uncharitable as well!

It still does not invalidate my proposition that the fire-ship attack was the key or POD. If the British fleet could not stop the Armada getting up the Channel, suppose they had embarked Parma's army and sailed for England still in good order? I doubt the British fleet would have been able to stop them then either.

BTW, I found my old copy of Pavane in the library.

ENGLISH, man! ENGLISH fleet!

 

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by Johnnyreb
OK, I just thought the British historians were rather uncharitable to M-S. For some reason, it did not cross my mind that Spanish historians might be uncharitable as well!

It seems that british and spanish agrees in something.

Respect your POD I agree that is correct. If the fire-ships had failed well we would have Parma in England in august 1588 (and if Spain Empire and culture centuries after of this POD had create some kind of Internet I would be writing this in castillian -spanish- and all you has to learn castillian -spanish- and use dictionary when you have doubts for write in "Forum de Historia Alternativa" (ATL of AH.com forum) administrated by Marcos Montesantos (ATL Ian Montgomerie) )

A pity

 

[MerryPrankster]

Actually, the Army of Flanders would have to sail out to get to the Armada, since the ships were too big to come too close to shore. They would have been harried by the Dutch coastal fleet in the process.

Not to mention the English fleet could try to intercept the Armada AFTER it picks up the Army of Flanders but before it can land. They could still win.

Of course, we want the Spanish to land IN England and topple Elizabeth, so we want them to lose.

How Protestant were the English? In Charles II's time we had the Scottish Covenanters, a Puritan guerrilla force so hard-core they signed their documents in their own blood, but they're a generation or two later. I'm wondering how much popular resistance the Spanish will face.

 

[Fletch]

OK, I just thought the British historians were rather uncharitable to M-S. For some reason, it did not cross my mind that Spanish historians might be uncharitable as well!

It still does not invalidate my proposition that the fire-ship attack was the key or POD. If the British fleet could not stop the Armada getting up the Channel, suppose they had embarked Parma's army and sailed for England still in good order? I doubt the British fleet would have been able to stop them then either.

BTW, I found my old copy of Pavane in the library.

James VI of Scotland AND John Knox would turn in their Graves.... English NOT British..

If Elizabeth was deposed, then James Position would be very interesting, from a Scottish Point of view.

 

[Thande]

How Protestant were the English? In Charles II's time we had the Scottish Covenanters, a Puritan guerrilla force so hard-core they signed their documents in their own blood, but they're a generation or two later. I'm wondering how much popular resistance the Spanish will face.

Well, there were still plenty of people for whom Bloody Mary's reign was in living memory. There were a lot of diehard Catholics as well, of course. Could see a simmering civil war.

 

[Fletch]

Well, there were still plenty of people for whom Bloody Mary's reign was in living memory. There were a lot of diehard Catholics as well, of course. Could see a simmering civil war.

Quite, remember, remember the 5th of November, that was a few years later...

 

[Johnnyreb]

I am assuming the Spanish Army would have beaten the English Army pretty quick and then imposed Catholicism on the country by force and terror. Presumably Elizabeth would have been interviewed by the Inquisition, then burnt.

I take the point about the problems of embarking Parma's army and attacks by the English fleet and Dutch coastwise raiders. But in their attacks on the Armada coming up Channel, the English only managed to sink 3 ships out of dozens. Why would they have done much, much better between Gravelines and Margate?

Had Scotland intervened, would they have been able to stand against the tercios? Again, I doubt it

 

[Johnnyreb]

As a postscript, I forgot to apologise for the British/English thing. In mitigation, it was Friday night, when there is (a) an anxiety to go out and (b) a muzziness when you return.

 

[MerryPrankster]

I take the point about the problems of embarking Parma's army and attacks by the English fleet and Dutch coastwise raiders. But in their attacks on the Armada coming up Channel, the English only managed to sink 3 ships out of dozens. Why would they have done much, much better between Gravelines and Margate?

Had Scotland intervened, would they have been able to stand against the tercios? Again, I doubt it

Well for starters, it's win or die at this point. The English fleet might well fight to the absolute last man in order to stop a Spanish landing.

Secondly, the English had faster ships and longer-ranged guns--the only way the Spanish could have won is if the wind enabled them to close with the English ships and board them.

The Scottish army might not be able to beat the Tercios man-for-man, but if the Scottish commanders are smart, they could spread the tercios thin and use ambushes, guerrilla tactics, etc.

Plus there's also the infamous "Highland charge" that remained an effective tactic until the Jacobite rebellions centuries later.

 

[Tocomocho]

Presumably Elizabeth would have been interviewed by the Inquisition, then burnt.

There is no inquisition in England, and it's not sure that Philip II would stablish one in the country. He never founded a Flanders Inquisition to deal with all that Dutch protestant rebels... Why do it in England? Moreover, even assuming the creation of an English Inquisition by the Pope and the new English king (who would be probably a colaborationist English nobleman, not the own Philip), it's unlikely that Elizabeth would end being burnt. 'Heretic' or not, she is a noblewoman and a relative of Philip after all. In the worst case, she would be hanged; in the most probable she would be sent to a remote convent or castle in the country and put under arrest untill her death.

 

[Johnnyreb]

Toco - hanging was not the penalty for senior people like Elizabeth, they were beheaded. Also, I was not saying the Inquisition would be established in England. The Spaniards would feel it necessary to show on record that Elizabeth was tried and condemned with due process of law (cf the English with Joan of Arc.) For this they had "flying" Commissions of the Inquisition, who could go wherever they wanted and hold ad hoc tribunals.

No-one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[Condottiero]

I agree with toco, IMHO I do not think an inquisition would be created. But I do not think Elizabeth would be killed. She would probably be sent to an abbey and probably to Spain.

 

[Homer]

I agree with toco, IMHO I do not think an inquisition would be created. But I do not think Elizabeth would be killed. She would probably be sent to an abbey and probably to Spain.

I think whether there would be an inquisition or not depends on Spanish power in England and English resistance. If resistance is strong, and the Spanish stay there to fight on, there might be an inquisition like organisation to enforce "true faith". If most English people accept catholicism and the new king/queen is cooperative, there would be no need for it.

Even if there was no spanish-like inquisition in Flanders, the spanish imposed other means to enforce catholicism that weren't that better.

 

[Johnnyreb]

Oh, I agree with Condo about sending Elizabeth to an abbey. It was common practice with females then. The question is, how long would she remain alive then? The obvious parallel is Mary Queen of Scots.

The problem with a still-alive-Elizabeth is that she would always be a focus.

Talking about MQOS makes this more and more Pythonesque. Did no-one get my joke?

 

[Condottiero]

Oh, I agree with Condo about sending Elizabeth to an abbey. It was common practice with females then. The question is, how long would she remain alive then? The obvious parallel is Mary Queen of Scots.

The problem with a still-alive-Elizabeth is that she would always be a focus.

Talking about MQOS makes this more and more Pythonesque. Did no-one get my joke?

If she's in Ireland or in Flanders then the problem might be minimised.

 

[Tocomocho]

If she's in Ireland or in Flanders then the problem might be minimised.

Brazil was a good place to "sent a forget" somebody in our timeline.