WI Hong Kong seceeded from China?

We always tend to think of Taiwan as being the hot spot for conflict, but what about Hong Kong? It is, at least in theory, more Western than even Taiwan, has the financial resources to achieve independence, and the population density to raise an army (6,815,800 in 2002, spread over about 420 square miles). Hong Kong also has a thriving pro-democracy movement (more details in this Economist.com article). If Hong Kong were inspired by Taiwan's assertion of independence, then it may spark revolution in Hong Kong. It would certainly be an interesting crisis to watch.

I suppose this scenario goes from alternate history to "future history", but it could just as easily have happened a few years ago, perhaps around the time of the '97 transfer from the UK to China.
 
david3565 said:
We always tend to think of Taiwan as being the hot spot for conflict, but what about Hong Kong? It is, at least in theory, more Western than even Taiwan, has the financial resources to achieve independence, and the population density to raise an army (6,815,800 in 2002, spread over about 420 square miles). Hong Kong also has a thriving pro-democracy movement (more details in this Economist.com article). If Hong Kong were inspired by Taiwan's assertion of independence, then it may spark revolution in Hong Kong. It would certainly be an interesting crisis to watch.

I suppose this scenario goes from alternate history to "future history", but it could just as easily have happened a few years ago, perhaps around the time of the '97 transfer from the UK to China.

As a "Hong Konger", I can answer you: Forget about it, more than 90% of food and drinking water are from Mainland China. HK independence is impossible, unless we have blessing from ASB...:p
 
Jonathan Kan said:
As a "Hong Konger", I can answer you: Forget about it, more than 90% of food and drinking water are from Mainland China. HK independence is impossible, unless we have blessing from ASB...:p

True, big problem there. I suppose that those planning independence need to stockpile and plan for alternatives, so it can't be a sudden decision (a green house on every residential property?). Or they need to find a way to bring in goods through a blockade.
 
david3565 said:
True, big problem there. I suppose that those planning independence need to stockpile and plan for alternatives, so it can't be a sudden decision (a green house on every residential property?). Or they need to find a way to bring in goods through a blockade.

Most of us are living in apartment complex...:p

Futhermore, more than 99% of HK people never recieve any kind of military training. Unless you hope our police force can stop PLA...:D

(Well, even ASB turn us into another State of Israel overnight, I doubt the crack "HKDF" can keep PLA at bay...:eek: )
 
Jonathan Kan said:
Most of us are living in apartment complex...:p

Futhermore, more than 99% of HK people never recieve any kind of military training. Unless you hope our police force can stop PLA...:D

(Well, even ASB turn us into another State of Israel overnight, I doubt the crack "HKDF" can keep PLA at bay...:eek: )

Well, it need not be greenhouses on residential properities. Rooftops also work. :) Thinking creatively is a must.

It would have to be a revolution started by the younger generation, smart, but naive. They succeed in booting out the mainland goons, but literally have no other plan beyond the short term. There are three potential allies in the region: Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. Japan is going to stay out of it. Taiwan might provide some non-military support and military advisors. South Korea, depending on how they lean, might be convinced to send military advisros unofficially. My recommendation is that "you" (speaking collectively of HK) should seek South Korea's help. They probably have the most elite troops in Asia. HK could probably accquire materials in Japanese markets. Russia might provide weaponry. They have plenty to sell and a lot of willingness. The lack of military training is disconcerting, but not impossible to overcome, as that is what having military advisors is all about.

Of course this all depends on how China responds. Given that Taiwan and now Hk have just declared independence, they might become overtly ultra-nationalist very fast. That means they become belligerent. That is going to sacre some nations and make others do something about it.
 

Valamyr

Banned
Meh, stop understimating the Chinese military. Just because its run by a bunch of commies ;) doesnt mean it cannot give anyone a run for its money.

HK would be overrun faster than the US can deploy carriers to the region, and while there are certain aspects, ie, water, that prevents the same for Taiwan, the island would be heavily bombarded and China would probably consider any foreign intervention on the same level of hostility as landings near Beijing.

Nuclear escalation over Taiwan remains far from impossible, if hotter heads prevail. Chinese missiles can reliably hit the west coast, and sooner than later, itll be everywhere on the globe.

My gut feeling is that even the US would back down if it got there, mightiest nation on earth or not. The chinese, once they are ready, willing probably be willing to gamble on that, too. I expect to see One China happen in my lifetime.
 
I've been discussing this on another forum and your right, with in the last five years the Chinese military has gotten far better. But I think you're over-estimating as well.

The Chinese forces will take weeks, if not months, to deploy all the troops needed to occupy Hong Kong. And just because China has nukes pointed at Taiwan doesn't mean Taiwan doesn't have them as well (Israel's arsenal was classified for years before it was leaked by a peace-nik scientist). And even if they don't, that doesn't mean that they can't bluster (Churchill did precisely that with the Nazis).

Hong Kong could probably purchase a few nukes off the black market in the time it would take Chinese troops to land. Blow one of those things for a demonstration and you might be able to hault an invasion.

As for a one China policy, don't hold your breath. The mainland is becoming increasingly Western, moving more toward Hong Kong and Taiwan, not the other way around. You might see re-unification that way, but it ain't likely under the Communists. A referendum was only recently defeated which would have been a delcaration of independence for Taiwan.
 
david3565 said:
The Chinese forces will take weeks, if not months, to deploy all the troops needed to occupy Hong Kong.

Hong Kong could probably purchase a few nukes off the black market in the time it would take Chinese troops to land. Blow one of those things for a demonstration and you might be able to hault an invasion.

As for a one China policy, don't hold your breath. The mainland is becoming increasingly Western, moving more toward Hong Kong and Taiwan, not the other way around. You might see re-unification that way, but it ain't likely under the Communists. A referendum was only recently defeated which would have been a delcaration of independence for Taiwan.

As a former Hong Konger, here are my two cents:

1. Chinese have troops already garrsioned in HK, so what's the problem? It's not like HK can raise the army out of thin air without China knowing about it in advance. PLA garrison there will probably crush whatever resistance they can muster in the beginning like a bug. And from Tiananmen Square incident, you can see that Chinese governemnt are not shy about slaughtering civilians.

2. If HK buys a nuke from the black market, then they pretty much doomed themselves into fighting China by themselves. Since no nations (well, almost no nations...) will back them up if they have any ties with terrorism, especially in this time.

3. I don't know about that buddy, the Taiwan democracy don't look too steady lately...
 
Well said, knightyknight. Plus...

david3565 said:
As for a one China policy, don't hold your breath. The mainland is becoming increasingly Western, moving more toward Hong Kong and Taiwan, not the other way around. You might see re-unification that way, but it ain't likely under the Communists. A referendum was only recently defeated which would have been a delcaration of independence for Taiwan.

...modern "Nationalism" is also a Western import.
 
david3565 said:
Well, it need not be greenhouses on residential properities. Rooftops also work. :) Thinking creatively is a must.

It would have to be a revolution started by the younger generation, smart, but naive. They succeed in booting out the mainland goons, but literally have no other plan beyond the short term. There are three potential allies in the region: Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. Japan is going to stay out of it. Taiwan might provide some non-military support and military advisors. South Korea, depending on how they lean, might be convinced to send military advisros unofficially. My recommendation is that "you" (speaking collectively of HK) should seek South Korea's help. They probably have the most elite troops in Asia. HK could probably accquire materials in Japanese markets. Russia might provide weaponry. They have plenty to sell and a lot of willingness. The lack of military training is disconcerting, but not impossible to overcome, as that is what having military advisors is all about.

Of course this all depends on how China responds. Given that Taiwan and now Hk have just declared independence, they might become overtly ultra-nationalist very fast. That means they become belligerent. That is going to sacre some nations and make others do something about it.

The average population in a typical HK residencial apartment is between 500 to 1500, do you think a tiny farmland on the roof top could feed all of them? :eek: Beside, after half century of industrialization and commercialization, there's not much farmer remain.

Two words: North Korea...:rolleyes:
 
First of all, a true diehard Freedom-for-HK movement would give the Chinese no end of pains and problems. So let's say that a movement like this declare for independence and a large part of the HK-society backs them up. Weapons and supplies are smuggled in and the violence begins (after some PLA crack-downs). As you state HK is mostly build-up and that consist of rather high buildings with somewhat narrow streets, yes? The Chinese Army is not trained nor equiped to fight a guerilla style war in such an enviroment. The PLA is organized into huge Army Corps that are very inflexible and not all that mechanized (not even motorized actually). I just can't see the Chinese completely cutting of supplies to HK! Nor can I see them bombing the stuffing out of the entire area (both alternatives could bring in the US in some way). All in all it would up to the troops in the PLA to uphold the peace... Conscripts to the slaughterer...

And for China invading Taiwan?! Noooo way! How would they do that? By putting men in row boats and hope the heavy armed and modern Taiwanese Army don't eat them up for lunch?

The Chinese Army is ineffecient and just plain bad. Leadership, training (especially) and equipment is of low standard and grade! Only thing working for them is numbers, and that might actually hamper their way to a modern battleworthy military...

Best of regards!

- Bluenote.
 
The Chinese army is just a really big marching band.
Against Taiwan they have no chance, the naval build up they would need before hand would tip off the world and if a peaceful resolution can't be reached then any half decent air force can sink their ships.
Hong Kong however is too close to China proper (isn't a lot of it actually on the mainland)?It is just a city so to become independant would need to conquer some neighbouring land and there is no way China would let them get away with that.
China bombing the city to the ground is out though I would agree,the amount of internationals in Hong Kong would put more or less every country in the world against China if they tried that.
 
All interesting points to consider, but some I disagree with and some I do. I'll be back later with another post.
 
Just food for thought, but it really depends on who leads a revolution and how much planning they put in. Having troops garrisoned in HK doesn't mean they can't fight a guerilla war, as someone pointed out, and it doesn't mean that the troops can't be caught with their pants down, which isn't all that unlikely. Lack of readiness is something occupation forces constantly have to look out for and Chinese troops are not exactly known for their readiness.

Let us suppose that some half-Chinese/half-British HKer did a stint with the Royal Marines or the SAS before the '97 transfer. This person would have had access to some of the best military training in the world and be thoroughly cemented in Western thought. He doesn't lead the revolution, he just signs on to help keep the zealous revolutionaries grounded in practical thought. To build a single SAS-type squadron takes 18 months. That is about 150-200 men. This can be done in warehouses and any other abandoned area in an urban environment, though there will need to be need to wilderness training, and a lot of it.

Considering their proximity to the intended target, the garrisoned troops, actually obtaining intelligence about the target is going to be easier. A few pro-democracy revolutionaries pose as communist hardliners and are able to get in on a visitor basis. They ID their tagets: comm. stations, vehicles, aircraft, armories. 150-200 men working around the clock for months to make mines and explosives (and buying them off the black market) means your going to have a substational stockpile.

Gvien that they have the element of surprise, the needed intelligence, the upper hand in training, and the ability to wait for a point of low readiness, the garrison of Chinese troops is quickly going to become a lot of hostages. What isn't destroyed is going to become equipment for this squadron.

Now, moving ahead, let us focs on the Chinese reponse. Troop movements are going to be slow; weeks or months. Probably months. In any case, this is not something they would have expected and they have to move troops from other locations and organize them to prepare an invasion. Tack on more time.

Air power is a different issue. Planes can be deployed with the space of hours, but an actual strategy will take days to develop and more likely weeks. They have zero intelligence on anti-air capability and have to choose which targets to hit. You can also bet that there will be resistance to bombing HK at all; it's a cash cow. Taking weeks to finally launch an air strike is a strong possibility.

It goes back to a period of preparation. Did these revolutionaries prepare neough before hand? Preparing for an invasion without an army means that nukes are almost a prerequisite. Here is how easy it is to obtain them: Back in the mid-90s, the Russian mafia nearly sold a fully-loaded nuclear submarine (with the warheads onboard) to two US federal agents posing as middle men for a Columbian drug-lord, all for a paltry $15 million. The agents, being escorted by a Russian immigrant to the US acting as the middle man for the mafia, were allowed ot meet the crew of the submarine and examine it for tthemselves. The Russian mafia will just about do business with anyone.

Let us assume that the revolutionaries have a large support base among the younger set and have collected donations for a charity that acted as a front for the armed revolution. That is quite a bit of money to work with, so they buy two subs and the Russians teach them how to use them and even offer maitenance equipment. China is planning an invasion and a video tape comes in to international news agencies showing an uninhabited island going up in a mushroom cloud. HK now announces they have nukes.

I have to disagree with the comment above that nukes is going to get them labeled "terrorists" and make them instant pariahs. It solely depends on how they explain themselves and how they use them. It they show the restraint of a reponsible nation-state and illustrate the obivousness of not having the armed forces to repel an invasion, they have wiggle-room. It is a bargaining chip.

Taiwan has little reason to substationally support them, other than some indirect morale support. South Korea, depending upon it's relations with China, might have reason to deal with HK under the table. Military advisors are all you can expect though.

That just about leaves Israel, Russia, UK, and the US. Israel has the cajones to help, but no direct interest. Russia is already helping and is probably going to take every opportunity to get more money out of them. The US can be expected to take a "neutral" stance. The CIA might assist in some small way, but were trying to take the free-tade route as a method to get rid of the Communists. The UK is more likely to assist. They still have ties to it and even unofficially, there are going to be people with training and credentials willing to consult.

That leaves the catalyst. This revolution didn't happen over night. China probably made a hardline shift somewhere along the way that made HKers very mad. I'll deal with the Chinese forces and food issue later.
 
david3565 said:
Just food for thought, but it really depends on who leads a revolution and how much planning they put in. Having troops garrisoned in HK doesn't mean they can't fight a guerilla war, as someone pointed out, and it doesn't mean that the troops can't be caught with their pants down, which isn't all that unlikely. Lack of readiness is something occupation forces constantly have to look out for and Chinese troops are not exactly known for their readiness.

No, those guys are ready. All they do is to get ready. The troops garrisoned there are not even allowed to leave the base without special permission. They're basically in jail and training. The HK puppet government is run by Beijing, do you believe in secret police? Beijing won't be surprised.

david3565 said:
Let us assume that the revolutionaries have a large support base among the younger set and have collected donations for a charity that acted as a front for the armed revolution. That is quite a bit of money to work with, so they buy two subs and the Russians teach them how to use them and even offer maitenance equipment. China is planning an invasion and a video tape comes in to international news agencies showing an uninhabited island going up in a mushroom cloud. HK now announces they have nukes.

China is Russia favorite frequent costumer. I think they have a special buy 2 sub get one free thing going. You think they'll risk giving up supplying the PLA to a few revolutionaries?

david3565 said:
That just about leaves Israel, Russia, UK, and the US. Israel has the cajones to help, but no direct interest. Russia is already helping and is probably going to take every opportunity to get more money out of them. The US can be expected to take a "neutral" stance. The CIA might assist in some small way, but were trying to take the free-tade route as a method to get rid of the Communists. The UK is more likely to assist. They still have ties to it and even unofficially, there are going to be people with training and credentials willing to consult.

The thing is though... the US ain't trying to get rid of the communist in China.

About the Chinese military... yes they are not the world best like the US, but they're good enough fight against almost any adversary in Asia. I don't think any Asian country got a tank that can counter the Chinese Type 96 Main Battle Tank. The Chinese are used to fighting revolutionaries, they slap around the separatists in Inner Mongolia and Tibet on a daily bases. Actually sometimes, they just slap them for no reason.

Jonathan Kan: Funny how everybody is arguing against us, when we are the only ones that know and lived in HK. A few bombs dropped on downtown HK, and every building on HK island will fall like dominos (no Stalingrad, because everyone will be dead).
 
I'm only going on the info I know. You filled me in on some other apsects, which changes the picture. Not trying to argue against you.
 
well, okay- I don't think nukes are gonna happen, but what about a prolonged and violent resistance to chinese rule? Say a campaign of urban terroist attacks against PLA troops and mainland chinese? (is that the right term? I mean violence against people who move in from the PRC) In an ongoing, simmering, low level violent struggle. The chinese respond by clamping down which just creates more unrest, etc. This cycle continues until Hong Kong is one of the major global "hot spots"- a sort of rich gaza strip for asia.
 
Linkwerk said:
well, okay- I don't think nukes are gonna happen, but what about a prolonged and violent resistance to chinese rule? Say a campaign of urban terroist attacks against PLA troops and mainland chinese? (is that the right term? I mean violence against people who move in from the PRC) In an ongoing, simmering, low level violent struggle. The chinese respond by clamping down which just creates more unrest, etc. This cycle continues until Hong Kong is one of the major global "hot spots"- a sort of rich gaza strip for asia.

Inner Mongolia and Tibet already have constant violence against the PLA, it's just not on CNN.
 
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