WI: Hindenburg never explodes

thaddeus

Donor
Science isn't your favorite subject, I'd guess.

NO it wasn't! haha (danced and painted fyi)

was really questioning what would happen to hydrogen as it escaped into a surrounding nitrogen cell and that if the worst case ammonia forms would that be a problem?

(thanks for sharing your knowledge, even coated in sarcasm)

if nitrogen were substituted for planned helium, could blau gas be revived as the fuel to pare weight from craft since it is barely heavier than air?

do away with passenger service and the structure could be revised to place the blau gas cells nearer bottom for easier ventilation?
 
Helium and hydrogen are the only gasses with the lifting power to make airships practical. We know the problems with hydrogen. Even if the Hindenburg does not explode, airships will lose favor to the airplane because they are too vulnerable to the weather. I'm surprised they are not used more for construction.
 

Whitewings

Banned
Well, airships were being displaced by airplanes for many reasons. Without the Hindenburg disaster, they still would have gone out of use, though they might have remained in use for a few niche applications, mostly heavy cargo lifting and luxury passenger travel.
 
Not to ignore the last couple three posts here

but I'm still stuck on the point in a post before about there being an opening for them in construction and LUXURY AIR TRAVEL. This latter is where I think ingenuity and marketing could create an opening for them today. (There are a few more models in use in cargo and construction besides the one I cited, too, in case this wasn't already common knowledge here.)
In that sense, recalling the lengthy record of the Graf Zeppelin could be something to build on.

I mean, in an age with layovers preceded by lengthy drives to airports, cramped leg space (see the latest news) and crashes in which every single, solitary soul is killed, the option of a quieter, statelier, maybe less crowded, complicated, cramped n tedious flight might appeal for traveling business meetings and families.
Also, with high speed communication, there not as much need, in some situations now, for high speed people and travel, including air travel.
I mean, compare even the worst airship crashes to today's jet crashes, there were survivors where now there are none.
 
American Airlines flight 96, there was a serious issue with the aircraft, but not one person died. Hindenburg made 36 flight before the disaster, but you know what, that's baby-steps compared to what most airliners do each and every year of their service lives. As for luxury air travel, Singapore does offer personal suites on some of their aircraft.
 
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We;;, it's not an argument that's

pleasant to contemplate, but check out the number of airship crashes with all hands lost, and all passengers, (percentage-wise, too), with those of jet airliners. People feel safer being in control of the wind, in large part, in heavier-than-aircraft than lighter-than-air, but statistically they are not at all. Those fuel tanks are filled with stuff that's every bit as explosive as hydrogen gas.

For that matter, contrast the number of Zeppelin bomber crew members who actually died over Britain during WWI, versus the number of heavier-than-air German bomber crews in the same amount of time in WW2. Clearly, Zeps got to the point where they couldn't even get over the target area before being shot down by the aircraft, but in terms of how survivable the crashes were, there's the rub.

As a weapon of war, they are out the door. But as a peacetime contraption for cargo, construction, and I believe with new innovations, as luxury air travel, they have an opening. Whether the economics for it are there, may be another matter. It requires investment in R&D, but a few companies are doing it for these construction and cargo craft, which no longer often offer the traditional football shape at all. Computers and electromagnets can offer much greater control at the landing, which is the most vulnerable point in most flights for lighter than air craft.

For passengers, loading and unloading, more safely done in an air-to-air mode, using aircraft to land and take off from the airship, is another possibility that would greatly eliminate the need for landings. Likewise, use of solar power would eliminate the need for landing to refuel.

When you did actually have to land, use of heavy gondolas and powerful reversible electromagnets, onboard and on the ground, assisted by computers factoring in wind speed and updraft/downdraft volatility, would also provide more stability. You're still going to be vulnerable in landings, however. Using helium gas, though, the risk of explosion is nil.
 
Heavier than aircraft are far better in winds,

in terms of control, but in terms of actual safety?...I don't know.

Again, if you have a solar-powered, helium-filled airship being blown about by high winds, if you can even get close enough to the ground to even jump out, you could survive.

If you're in a jet or prop plane, at those wind speeds, you can still lose control, get hit by sheers, and forced to crash suddenly and explode. When you're forced down--again, the difference between helium and hydrogen is very important here--in the airship, there's no explosion, no fire. There's got to be a safety argument there, somewhere, for airship.

OK, this is not a very pleasant or positive way to think, and scientists don't like things that aren't as predictable or where we still lack data and knowledge. Wind is one of those areas! Wind sheer is deadly, when unpredictable, to any kind of aircraft. We're still in a data-gathering mode about winds and especially wind sheer.

These Aussie designs and some others I've seen, have basically eliminated the threat of side winds, by using a round or wheel shaped bag, with the gondola suspended not from a cable(s) but from an axle that rotates with the engine, not the movement of the circular bag, when sideways winds are occurring.

That leaves the updrafts and downdrafts, which admittedly are a risk. You can cut into the risk at very low altitude from the ground, with reversible electromagnets and increasing the weight of the gondola.

There may be other gadgetry, and of course there is the traditional venting of gas or dropping of ballast to compensate for sudden updrafts or downdrafts at low altitude.

At higher altitude, data about lower altitude crosswinds below and also data on volatile updrafts/downdrafts, can force a decision to remain at altitude until more stability returns.

These things are more possible than ever before--and will be increasingly so--using advanced computers teamed with advanced meteorological technologies and meteorological data available today. But having the option of entrance and egress via aircraft while in the air, and the solar power for the engines, cuts into the necessity of landing, as we noted. That does, in turn, require smaller heavier-than-air craft.

Extendible gondolas and gondolas that can change shape, and the same kinds of safety devices now available in airliners, such as the sheets that drop out of the side doors for emergency exits, could also add to the safety of any passengers and crew.

One scenario that would still be a threat and for which no gadgetry is available to help, would be the one where the airship has become too unstable to be usable due to sudden and unpredicted wind sheers/updrafts/downdrafts. Hurricane force winds are unlikely to be non-predicted anymore, however, as they were in the '20s. It's undeniable that updrafts and downdrafts could be fatal, but we can cut into how often that is the case, as never before.

We are facing climate change, more storms and the threat of terrorism. All of that, is an argument against airships to an extent. They could be hijacked just like any other aircraft. But just as they are unusable as effective weapons of war, it's unlikely they're usable as terror weapons.
 
pleasant to contemplate, but check out the number of airship crashes with all hands lost, and all passengers, (percentage-wise, too), with those of jet airliners. People feel safer being in control of the wind, in large part, in heavier-than-aircraft than lighter-than-air, but statistically they are not at all. Those fuel tanks are filled with stuff that's every bit as explosive as hydrogen gas.
Yeah, now compare the number of aircraft that crashed against the total number of each type produced.

The only real advantage airships offer is the capability to 'hover' silently (or almost so), in pretty much everything else, speed, reliability, capacity, ease of maintenance, etc, aircraft win out.
 
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Well, I don't know about ease of maintenance

Aircraft have benefited tremendously from advances in technologies that were never or seldom available for airship use.

Many famous or infamous airship failures were the fault of very specific design flaws for that particular craft, not necessarily weather related. When that has happened with particular aircraft, further efforts were made to improve the design and methods of use. Airships, on the other hand, were usually just chucked altogether if the design had flaws.

Certainly, the history, up to now, of reliability of airships versus aircraft, per capita, falls to aircraft. But more effort has been put into them, too.

Speed is definitely an issue--except when you add in time on the ground.
 
Speed is definitely an issue--except when you add in time on the ground.
Not really, by the mid-1930s due to flying boats higher cruising speeds they were able to make the same flights as zeppelins whilst stopping every night and still reach the destination in a similar or faster time. Now you can argue that improved models and materials design would allow for faster zeppelins but airplanes are going to benefit from these advances as well and improve at a much faster rate. If people are willing to pay the absolutely outrageous prices needed to make zeppelin travel possible then in my opinion they're much more likely to simply pay for a first class ticket on a jet airliner and get to their destination in a fraction of the time. At best that leaves you with carrying cargo, a vaguely promising idea but I'll hold judgement until they actually enter widespread service, or tourism similar to luxury cruise liners and even there the costs are going to be extreme.
 
Aircraft have benefited tremendously from advances in technologies that were never or seldom available for airship use.
Yes, often because said technologies couldn't be applied. cabin pressurisation for instance is useless to zeppelins, because the envelopes themselves can't take the stress of flying high. Jets aren't much of an advantage either, since speed will always be limited.

Many famous or infamous airship failures were the fault of very specific design flaws for that particular craft, not necessarily weather related. When that has happened with particular aircraft, further efforts were made to improve the design and methods of use. Airships, on the other hand, were usually just chucked altogether if the design had flaws.
There's a reason for this, and it's because airships are too big to try to repair.

Certainly, the history, up to now, of reliability of airships versus aircraft, per capita, falls to aircraft. But more effort has been put into them, too.
Indeed, but check off against the Handley Page H.P.42s and 45s. 4 aircraft of each model were produced, and while all were lost, none were lost within their first 5 years of service, and only one suffered even a notable event in that period.
 
Then the Reichstag fire probably gets blamed on communists or something besides his spontaneous combustion.

(Sorry, very puerile. :p)

And then the Hindenburg gets stolen by Japanese Kamikaze fighters and crashed into the Empire State Building in December `41 so that in TTL hardly anybody ever talkes about Pearl Harbor.
 
Well, just to answer a point on repairs and use on

an earlier post, Matt II said:

"There's a reason for this, and it's because airships are too big to try to repair."

Airships of new design have come back into use in cargo and construction, and will probably come into increasing use with the continuing design improvements--errr, repairs.

Aircraft are simply far too volatile and demand too high a speed to be maneuverable and adequate for lifting and elaborate but slow maneuvers. Dirigibles are proving more reliable for heavy lifts and close qurter maneuvers at low speed.

I would argue that can also be true for some types of luxury air travel, for the same reasons.

I don't believe anyone up here has suggested they would displace heavier than aircraft altogether, but it is a fact that heavier than aircraft have not been able to displace them altogether, either.

I would submit this is an argument for the idea this thread is exploring--that, given changed circumstances, airships could have enjoyed wider usage, earlier on.

Another angle on that, would be that our recent r&d could have happened sooner or been possibly encouraged from additional sources. Possibly bringing in other historical events in addition to Hindenberg, such as Macon and Akron, as a poster or two suggested earlier, might help.
 
"There's a reason for this, and it's because airships are too big to try to repair."

Airships of new design have come back into use in cargo and construction, and will probably come into increasing use with the continuing design improvements--errr, repairs.
'Repair' means 'to restore to a good or sound condition after decay or damage'. Okay, some of the earlier airship took damage to their exteriors that was later repaired, but replacing a punctured bladder, that is a major issue, especially in a non-rigid airship.

Aircraft are simply far too volatile and demand too high a speed to be maneuverable and adequate for lifting and elaborate but slow maneuvers. Dirigibles are proving more reliable for heavy lifts and close qurter maneuvers at low speed.
So helicopters don't exist?

I would argue that can also be true for some types of luxury air travel, for the same reasons.
They can be used for aerial tour-buses, but really that's about it.

I don't believe anyone up here has suggested they would displace heavier than aircraft altogether, but it is a fact that heavier than aircraft have not been able to displace them altogether, either.
They have been reduced to floating billboards, and a couple of other niche markets where hanging around all day doing squat is desirable.

I would submit this is an argument for the idea this thread is exploring--that, given changed circumstances, airships could have enjoyed wider usage, earlier on.
Only by delaying heavier-than-air aircraft.

Another angle on that, would be that our recent r&d could have happened sooner or been possibly encouraged from additional sources. Possibly bringing in other historical events in addition to Hindenberg, such as Macon and Akron, as a poster or two suggested earlier, might help.
Both were wrecked within 3 years, not a great record.
 
I am surprised at how much discussion this is generating
Airships are 'kewl'. People want them to be useful, desperately. Unfortunately, there's a reason why they petered out so thoroughly iOTL.

Might there be some niche applications, beyond serving as a floating billboard at football games? Yes. Finding them, and proving them economical is tough. No one has really succeeded yet.
 
I have thought on occasion that they'd be good for sightseeing over wilderness areas (say, the African savannah), where floating almost silently might be an advantage.
 
Transportation speeds moved in leaps and bounds.
Fokker and Ford tri-motors were the first reliable mail-carriers.
Douglas DC-3 was almost double the cruising speed, but it's range was still less than halfway across the USA. DC-3s two biggest advantages were that it could take-off from grass and thousands were surplused after WW2.

Returning to the 1930s, zeppelins competed directly with large flying boats (Shorts Empire Class and American flying clippers. Flying boats had the advantage of really long (really wet) runways that allowed them to take-off with huge fuel over-loads and skim the ocean until they burned off enough fuel to climb. Flying boats were most useful on trans-oceanic routes.

Meanwhile, Zeppelins had advantages flying long routes over mountains.
WI a Zeppelin company connecting German colonies in Africa (Tanganika, Namibia, Cameroon and Togo). Zeppelins did not need to compete with railroads in most of the African interior.
WI Zeppelin service across Asia where the only competition was the Trans-Siberian Railway? What if a zeppelin could connect Uzbekistan with India in one flight (shades of Peshawar Lancers)?

Post WW2 land planes only became more efficient because they could take-off from long concrete runways built for WW2 bomber campaigns.
 
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