WI gengis Khan used gunpowder

[iokua]

If gengis khan used gunpowder his empire would probobly taken up all of Asia. the empire would last longer since Kubli wouldn't have to worry about claiming Japan since they would've probobly gotten it before that. this would also effect the Renissance in some way or another by making trade even more important since certain areas would need certain things. Gengis or one of his following rulers of the empire would've come up with the cannon and conquered more land. in stead of its decline in the 13th century, it would've happend much later like in maybe the middle to late 14th or early to middle 15th century. Gunpowder would've also effected protection, allowing the empire to keep protected even through the fiercest battles.

 

[Phenabob]

Mongol Gunpowder

I just finished reading Jack Weatherford's book, "Genghis Khan- and the making of the Modern World" and by his account, though Genghis Khan might not have significantly used gunpowder, his succesors certainly did. Indeed it was quite instrumental in conquering Baghdad.

 

[iokua]

I just finished reading Jack Weatherford's book, "Genghis Khan- and the making of the Modern World" and by his account, though Genghis Khan might not have significantly used gunpowder, his succesors certainly did. Indeed it was quite instrumental in conquering Baghdad.

cool but i was talking about if he used it in the very beggining

 

[Evil Opus]

I dunno..... I suppose if a miracle technological breakthrough occurs and the Mongols get guns from the 1600's, 1200's Europe gets screwed and occupied by Mongols. The Mongols then go on to send ships to the west to colonize the Americas and the British Isles. The Islamic Calphiate also falls, along with Africa. So, in short, the Mongols REALLY rule the world. All the continents fall under their heel(except Antarctica).

 

[DominusNovus]

cool but i was talking about if he used it in the very beggining

The Chinese had it. After the Chinese were conquered, the Mongols had gunpowder, and so used it. So, the POD would have to be earlier chinese conquest or earlier invention of gunpowder.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

To what extent would they use it and why? AFAIK the mongols were invincible under Genghis. How could they do any better than be undefeated?

What turned Subotai back from the brink of Europe was Genghis' death anyway, I thought.

And how would gunpowder make the storms that sunk his Japanese fleet any less severe? (wasn't that under Kublai in 1274-81 and didn't they have some gunpowder by then?)

Possibly, an enemy could even steal the secret and use it to defeat the mongols in their turn.

 

[JimmyJimJam]

Why wouldnt the Khan's enemies use it against him?

 

[Fenwick]

Also the Mongols did so well as soldiers because they acted mainly as cavalry. How accurate is a gun in comparrison to an archer? Not only that a rider on a horse who knows how to shoot on the move is certainly more deadly in terms of qauntity.

 

[Resat]

Mongolian Artillery

Hello Folks,
The problem with mongolian artillery is that it had been used extensively, even against them by the chinese. Granted it was no where near as accurate as 16th century peices but it was used. The effect of gunpowder during 12th and 13th centuries was mainly a demoralizing one.
We are talking about thunder on a warm summer day, noise levels no one had ever witnessed before.
We mustnt forget that Chengiz-Hans main superweapon was the superiour logistics he set up for his troops. The mongolians did not have and army at the beginning of their conquests, they were the army!
Also do no forget that the mongolians were the first one to use propaganda and word of mouth to conquer cities and countries. The brutality with which they subdued cities spread very quickly and others on the path of conquest came to conclusion that opposing ment certain destruction. The odds being this high many just surrendered or even asked for mongolian patronage, sparing themselves from the bulk of the cruelties.

 

[Tizoc]

I have one, very important question: how the Mongols were supposed to manufacture guns at the begining of their expansion? To produce guns, you need qualified craftsmen, large enough supplies of necessary ingredients and, last but not least, you shouldn't be nomad...

 

[Max Sinister]

Similar as OTL: After they took the first city, they forced all the available craftsmen to work for them.

 

[stevep]

I agree with Napoleon on this. The Mongols were powerful because of their mobility, plus also other factors like discipline and the lethality of their archers. Why would they want to tie themselves down with cumbersome, very heavy and unreliable early cannon which had very little effect.

Iokua The key problem for the Mongols was the sheer size of their empire. Genghis had set a rule that the leaders should met to decide the new great Khan whenever one died. Twice this made armies turn back, the one that penetrated Europe in 1247 and the one that conquered Iraq and Syria in 1260. [I think in both cases that each general actually found the election over long before they got back to Mongolia but that was the reason, to the best of my knowledge, for the about turn]. Later it fragmented when the various factions, which had so little regular contact, became bitter rivals. Hence you had the golden Horde convert to Islam and ally with the marmalukes against their fellow Mongols in the Il-Khan in Persia. It was only much later that gunpowder weapons became effective enough to be worthwhile for most armies and the development of individual guns that enabled the sedentary states to finally gain a decisive edge over the steppe nomads.

Steve


Steve