WI: Gasoline prices in the U.S. matched those in UK/Europe?

[Cash]

Like the tin says, what if gasoline prices in the United States over the past 50-60 years had been similar to those in Europe? How would that change the auto industry, land use planning, lifestyles, crude oil imports and domestic production? If we look at England, for example, we see smaller, "semi-detached" (duplex) houses on smaller lots so that more people can find affordable housing within short-commute or mass-transit distance of their work sites. (Among other reasons -- I recognize that other factors are at play there.)

And what would the extra tax income be used for? Reduce or replace the income tax? Finance earlier social services such as universal health care?

 

[deamy]

1960:ies: Taxes on gas are raised to European levels. Dissatisfaction grows in the Mid-West against the "city dweller" and "commuters" politics. Many farms close down as the farmers can't afford gas for machines or transportation. "Country-side death" accors and many smaller towns are abandoned.

1970:ies: The big cities grow, with New York having near 20 million inhabitants with its large shanty town surrounding it. In the country side, many revert to a traditional lifestyle with horses being the main mean of transportation. McDonalds starts it new concept, "Commute-in", providing fast food for the mass transit systems in the big cities. Dissatisfied people in the Mid-West, many of them Vietnam veterans, joins groups that demands "Gas for the people!". Some also demands independence from the central government.

1980:ies: America is plaged by famine as food isn't produced or transported any more. The Washington government, is after years of insurrection overthrown by the militias from the West. To live up to the promises, the new leaders invade a whole lot of middle east countries for its oil. The Soviet Union is ultimately drawn in and much of the modern world ends in a nuclear war.

2060:ies. Aliens from a planet called Vulcan makes first contact with a small community in Montanta.

Something like that

 

[Cash]

Cute. But farmers buy their fuel tax-free.

 

[The Kiat]

What!? How dare they not pay taxes. Still, there would be an issue on farms if fuel prices rosed to quickly. If that happened, they'd have to use moonshine to power their equipment. Either that, or that or import lots of farm hands from the cities.

 

[Cash]

What!? How dare they not pay taxes. Still, there would be an issue on farms if fuel prices rosed to quickly. If that happened, they'd have to use moonshine to power their equipment. Either that, or that or import lots of farm hands from the cities.

Farmers generally get a rebate for fuel bought for on-farm use, so I don't expect that European-level taxes would affect farm production much. It doesn't in Europe, after all. Interesting idea about using farm-generated fuels and requiring more human labor. I wonder if it would affect farm consolidation trends?

 

[deamy]

Cute. But farmers buy their fuel tax-free.

On a serious note I think there would be issues with de-population of the remote areas. Take my country Sweden for example; the northernmost areas are expected to lose 28 % of its population over the next few decades, while Stockholm is expected to grow with about the same.

Gas prices is, along with fewer workplaces (which also have to do with it, because of transportation cost for companies), the main reason behind this.

The problem for farmers isn't the tractors (which usually run on low-tax diesel), but the long car rides to schools, shops, workplaces (here most farmers have a ordinary day-time job) etc., in the not-so near cities.

I would expect a similar trend in the US, had the taxes on gas been the same.

 

[wietze]

Just for information current gas prices in Europe are $9-$10 a gallon

 

[mattep74]

Electrical cars makes an impact and big gas cars go out of style

 

[Shaby]

Maybe prices would be more stable and fuel efficient vehicles more common on US roads, instead of gas guzzling monstrosities. But any attempt to make this happen would probably end in massive protests on the streets.

 

[Ace Venom]

You'd probably see more incentive to develop technology to further exploit untapped American oil resources, but you'd also probably see a few coal to oil plants pop up as well.

 

[Xgentis]

1960:ies: Taxes on gas are raised to European levels. Dissatisfaction grows in the Mid-West against the "city dweller" and "commuters" politics. Many farms close down as the farmers can't afford gas for machines or transportation. "Country-side death" accors and many smaller towns are abandoned.

1970:ies: The big cities grow, with New York having near 20 million inhabitants with its large shanty town surrounding it. In the country side, many revert to a traditional lifestyle with horses being the main mean of transportation. McDonalds starts it new concept, "Commute-in", providing fast food for the mass transit systems in the big cities. Dissatisfied people in the Mid-West, many of them Vietnam veterans, joins groups that demands "Gas for the people!". Some also demands independence from the central government.

1980:ies: America is plaged by famine as food isn't produced or transported any more. The Washington government, is after years of insurrection overthrown by the militias from the West. To live up to the promises, the new leaders invade a whole lot of middle east countries for its oil. The Soviet Union is ultimately drawn in and much of the modern world ends in a nuclear war.

2060:ies. Aliens from a planet called Vulcan makes first contact with a small community in Montanta.

Something like that

Sure we suffer from famine.

 

[MonsooN]

Electrical cars makes an impact and big gas cars go out of style

This /\

The only reason we're seeing more electric cars now is that it's starting to become a realistic alternative to petrol and diesel. Create a greater need at an earlier time and the big manufacturers will start developing electric cars sooner. The reason they haven't until now is that there's been no need to.

 

[Polish Eagle]

Electrical cars makes an impact and big gas cars go out of style

Or Natural Gas. Or Methanol (which can be used in any gasoline-burner). Or a form of biodiesel. Battery tech wasn't quite up to the challenge in decades past, and is only now reaching the point where it's practical for anything other than short-range commuting.

Of course, Suburbia would take a hit. There would be more of a move toward Commuter-friendly expansion--commuter rail and subways would get more support. The highways would be more restrained. Maybe there would be a high-speed-rail system in the North-East and Chicago areas.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Even in the UK where the motorist is seen by the government as a cash cow farmers pay significantly less for diesel than the rest of us. Thats why farm fuel is dyed red, so the farmers can't sell it on. They're also not supposed to use red diesel in their cars. Dosn't stop them even when the police do random checks.

 

[NothingNow]

Or Natural Gas. Or Methanol (which can be used in any gasoline-burner). Or a form of biodiesel. Battery tech wasn't quite up to the challenge in decades past, and is only now reaching the point where it's practical for anything other than short-range commuting.

Yeah, but with a smallish Diesel or ethanol motor providing a sustaining charge (which can easily be done with a Mechanical Computer, never mind an electronic one,) you get all of the benefits of electrical power with few drawbacks.

Besides, remember the Ford Ranger EV and the Chevrolet S-10 Electric? They were really popular with agricultural, Industrial and other operators who didn't mind having a 60-100 mile range on a cheap to charge truck isn't that bad when you're using it for general duty stuff on a not-huge farm.



Now, in cities OTOH, Trolley Busses and light rail systems just became really competitive forms of Mass transportation, while density is going to shoot through the fucking roof, which compliments mass transit. Long Haul Trucking became non-competitive, and depending on the taxes on Diesel, and the availability of low-sulfur fuel, you might have just spelled the end of full-size gas-guzzlers, although Diesel Land Yachts would be more popular (mostly as a status symbol.)

For the average citizen, the Beetle, Mini, Honda Civic and AMC just became ridiculously competitive in the US (because of both smaller physical dimensions and lower fuel consumption,) especially since AMC actually knew how to build a good small car. Forced induction systems and fuel injection take off sooner in the US, as the monster V8 rapidly becomes more of a liability than an asset, and the Straight-6 becomes not only the go-to engine for durability, but also the normal top-end drivetrain for most vehicles. We might also see an earlier push for Air-pollution regulation and reduction as Smog is going to be a much bigger issue much sooner.

 

[colleen1227]

Do the higher taxes also effect the price of the oil,coal and gas to the electric plants that generate the power for these electric cars/trucks? because if they do then the electric option is out too for transportation. Higher taxes are only used to reduce the use of what is taxed. Those who want higher energy taxes want to reduce the use of energy in our economy. So they want to reduce our economy. Not a great idea.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Those who claim to want to raise taxes on fuel, tobacco, alcohol ect are playing right into the hands of the treasury of which ever country they live in. Governments are quite happy to raise the taxes, but have no interest in actually reducing consumption of those items. If people actually did what the governments claim they want us to do there would be a truely huge hole in the public finances, and heaven forbid the politicions might have to take a pay cut.

 

[colleen1227]

Up to a point you are right, but once the taxes increase the price to a level that the people can't afford it they will reduce their use. Me ,for example must drive my car in the course of work. If the price is raised too high by taxes my job is not worth it, as I will spending more to do my job then its worth. That is the point I think those who want to raise the cost of energy in the US to European standards are after. They want to reduce our use of energy and there by reduce our economy. A growing economy has a growing energy use. That is why the drilling on federal lands has decreased to a ten year low under OB. The only increase has been on private lands outside his control.

 

[The Kiat]

You'd probably see more incentive to develop technology to further exploit untapped American oil resources, but you'd also probably see a few coal to oil plants pop up as well.

I find this to be of a higher probablity than the magical blossoming of electric cars.

 

[Cash]

On a serious note I think there would be issues with de-population of the remote areas. Take my country Sweden for example; the northernmost areas are expected to lose 28 % of its population over the next few decades, while Stockholm is expected to grow with about the same.

Gas prices is, along with fewer workplaces (which also have to do with it, because of transportation cost for companies), the main reason behind this.

The problem for farmers isn't the tractors (which usually run on low-tax diesel), but the long car rides to schools, shops, workplaces (here most farmers have a ordinary day-time job) etc., in the not-so near cities.

I would expect a similar trend in the US, had the taxes on gas been the same.

That has been a trend in the US for decades now in rural areas of the Midwest and West, northern Maine, and other remote areas. Perhaps higher gasoline prices would accelerate the trend, though. Good point.