WI French discovery of Australia

Eastern Australia specifically. So this is a little outside my wheelhouse but something I read recently peaked my interest. I'm looking at the possibility that the French beat Cook to the east coast of Australia and immediately launch a few follow up voyages. I've sketched an outline that seems plausible but I'm curious if it's actually reasonable. Forgive the length.

Probably most people are familiar with the 18th century voyages of discovery in the Pacific. Starting with Wallis for the British and Bougainville for the French in 1766 who both visited Tahiti and then James Cook's three voyages which discovered the east coast of Australia, circumnavigated New Zealand, discovered New Caledonia, Hawaii etc etc.

The French contemporaries of Cook were less successful. Jean Francois Marie de Surville roamed the western pacific and made some discoveries in the Solomons before an unfortunate stop over in New Zealand after which he limped across the Pacific only to die coming ashore in Chile where the Spanish Viceroy impounded his ship, journals and detained the few surviving crew. Kerguelen's expedition discovered the eponymous islands before breaking up with Kerguelen returning home to France to give an exaggerated account of his discovery and St Alouarn continued on to western Australia (New Holland) barely making it back to France himself, where he died shortly after. And finally Marion du Fresne's which discovered the Crozet Islands before stopping at Van Diemen's land and then New Zealand with tragic results. Crozet continued the voyage in a large arc around the pacific from Tonga to Guam and then back to Ile de France (Mauritius).

The one that interests me most is Surville's. His was not planned as a purely scientific mission as it was intended to discover and trade with rich lands in the Pacific. Thus his ships were loaded with trade goods. It also suffered greatly from scurvy, a common theme amongst the French expeditions in comparison to Cook's. At any rate while he was in the Solomons with supplies running low he, for whatever reason, decided to make for New Zealand. Given the difficulty in gaging longitude he headed in a southwest direction to the latitude of New Zealand before turning east so as to be sure not to miss it by coming down too far east of it. Supposedly he may have come within only a few hundred km of the east coast of Australia around the latitude of Botany Bay or Port Jackson.

So I'm wondering what would have happened had he sailed just a little further west. He arrives in Australia around November 1769 about 5-6 months ahead of Cook. He puts in at Botany Bay or Port Jackson to resupply. I can't say for sure where he's likely to go from there. There are three options probably depending on the state of his crew and ship, either down the coast, up the coast or back to sea to make for New Zealand. I think if he could he'd probably try to head out to sea as his mission was to search for 'Davis Land' in the eastern Pacific. Doing that he'd probably pass by Cook somewhere in the Tasman Sea.

But I'm more interested in a scenario where he explores North up the coast, perhaps with the goal of returning to the Solomons to pick up where he left off. He then returns to Ile de France either by way of Timor via the Torres Strait or by way of Malacca after circling round the north side of New Guinea. This would put him back at Ile de France by early 1771, probably earlier depending on the route and how much time he spends exploring around New Guinea. Both Marion du Fresne and Kerguelen were there from about August to September 1771 preparing for there respective expeditions.

So what if Surville discovers eastern Australia, probably calling it France Australe, or maybe Nouvelle France Australe (New South France) for fun, in 1769, ahead of Cook, and then a year or so later pulls into Ile de France with stories of his voyage. It seems likely it would instantly be the focus for the two subsequent voyages. Kerguelen, St Alouarn, du Fresne and Crozet, seemed all to be fairly competent navigators. Their expeditions were not as well equipped as Cook's to combat scurvy and were perhaps not quite as good at charting the lands they discovered but any of them would be adequate. And more over the French had a propensity, as demonstrated by St Alouarn, for claiming ownership of the new lands.

So is there any scenario where follow up French expeditions chart more of Australia, perhaps finding the Bass Strait and demonstrating that Van Diemen's land is an island, perhaps exploring the southern coast. Or maybe crossing the Tasman and exploring New Zealand. The reports from one or several of the them upon returning to France are favorable, certainly there would be no need for Kerguelen to exaggerate the suitability of the new lands. Then things spiral from there.

Then the question becomes the plausibility of settlement. Is there any chance at all that a colony of resettled Acadians could be established? Or if its too late for them perhaps just some French peasants instead? Or maybe something really crazy like Maurice de Benyovksy establishing a colony there instead of his OTL abortive attempt in Madagascar. A small French outpost maybe 10 or 15 years before OTL Sidney? Long term prospects are uncertain. The American Revolution kind of limits the British ability to respond immediately but I'm sure they'd do so by the mid 1780s. Then the French Revolution would limit the French ability to counter the British and sustain the colony. But still French discovery and possibly even settlement of Australia ahead of the British is pretty interesting.
 
Any French settlement would be vulnerable to destruction or conquest by the British, who had a superior navy and a strong interest in the Pacific as well as everywhere else. The Aborigines could probably be kept at bay with 18th century European weapons and disease, but drought and other extreme weather conditions (or to put it another way, Australia as it behaves normally) could also end the colony.

I think the French would act in Australia as they did in New Caledonia IOTL; we'd see convict colonies established, mineral resources mined, and genocide and enslavement against the Aborigines in favor of French landowners. However, the French were never as interested in settler colonial projects as the British; for this reason, we may see a higher surviving Aboriginal population in French Australia, as there are fewer settlers spreading diseases, disrupting the environment in which they get their food, and attacking the native peoples.

We may also see a much less white immigrant population than OTL. With less settlers coming in from the metropole, the French may seek to import labor, probably establishing a system of indentured servitude for laborers. Eventually these laborers and their descendants would get freedom and citizenship; we may find ourselves in a modern Australie where politics consist of tripartite competition between Indian, Chinese and European political parties, with smaller ethnic interests such as Aborigines, Pacific Islanders and Vietnamese maneuvering between them in search of patronage.
 
I think the French would act in Australia as they did in New Caledonia IOTL; we'd see convict colonies established, mineral resources mined, and genocide and enslavement against the Aborigines in favor of French landowners. However, the French were never as interested in settler colonial projects as the British; for this reason, we may see a higher surviving Aboriginal population in French Australia, as there are fewer settlers spreading diseases, disrupting the environment in which they get their food, and attacking the native peoples.

We may also see a much less white immigrant population than OTL. With less settlers coming in from the metropole, the French may seek to import labor, probably establishing a system of indentured servitude for laborers. Eventually these laborers and their descendants would get freedom and citizenship; we may find ourselves in a modern Australie where politics consist of tripartite competition between Indian, Chinese and European political parties, with smaller ethnic interests such as Aborigines, Pacific Islanders and Vietnamese maneuvering between them in search of patronage.

The French in the post 1763 period were substantially more interested in settler colonies than at other periods of time. Most visibly part of this was the French plan to settle Guiana, which as it turned out was a rather dismal failure, but which saw some 9,000 settlers sent out there in the 1763-1765 period (with I believe the pool that was to be sent being 17,000 or 19,000, but 9,000 - sometimes 12,000 in alternate tellings - was the number that arrived). Certainly the French colonial drive didn't possess the constant settler impetus like their British equivalents, but it was not static and varied over time. They decided after the 1763 war that they lost their colonies because they had insufficient white population in their colonies and had tried to rectify that; they might decide that Australia would make a reasonable replacement. This being said, Guiana had been possessed by France for some period of time; it isn't certain that they would latch onto Australia as a replacement, even if to us it makes a great deal of sense.

Also, given that the revolution is looming in relatively short time, and there seems to be little that would change it, the French position in Australia looks rather poor. The French navy, in combination with their Spanish counterparts, has a sufficient strength to be able to match the British on the sea for the immediate future and hence a reasonable change to protect the colony; when the revolution breaks out then of course the colony could be taken relatively easily. Even presuming large-scale colonization happening immediately, extremely optimistic, 30 years is not really enough to build a self-defending colony that could repel a British invasion in such regards.

I guess short of avoiding the revolution - or winning the consequent war with the British and keeping hold of French Australie - the best that might be hoped for is a situation like Québec, where the French population is large enough that the British don't simply assimilate it and part of Australia ends up as French speaking, if part of the British Australia.
 
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Riain

Banned
Given Surville doesn't do exactly what Cook does where do the French plant their colony?
 
Also, given that the revolution is looming in relatively short time, and there seems to be little that would change it, the French position in Australia looks rather poor. The French navy, in combination with their Spanish counterparts, has a sufficient strength to be able to match the British on the sea for the immediate future and hence a reasonable change to protect the colony; when the revolution breaks out then of course the colony could be taken relatively easily. Even presuming large-scale colonization happening immediately, extremely optimistic, 30 years is not really enough to build a self-defending colony that could repel a British invasion in such regards.

I guess short of avoiding the revolution - or winning the consequent war with the British and keeping hold of French Australie - the best that might be hoped for is a situation like Québec, where the French population is large enough that the British don't simply assimilate it and part of Australia ends up as French speaking, if part of the British Australia.

But Britain may not keep *Australie permanently. Remember that the Napoleonic Wars are ostensibly about restoring the House of Bourbon and France to something close to its pre-Revolutionary situation. Accordingly, while Britain made a few gains (Saint Lucia, Tobago and Mauritius from France; Cape Colony from the Dutch) it returned Martinique, Guadeloupe and Réunion to France, and Java to the Dutch, while pressuring Portugal to return Guiana to France.

What I think might happen is Australia would be partitioned, with Britain returning the colony of *Australie while laying claim to its own "British Australia" elsewhere on the continent.
 
But Britain may not keep *Australie permanently. Remember that the Napoleonic Wars are ostensibly about restoring the House of Bourbon and France to something close to its pre-Revolutionary situation. Accordingly, while Britain made a few gains (Saint Lucia, Tobago and Mauritius from France; Cape Colony from the Dutch) it returned Martinique, Guadeloupe and Réunion to France, and Java to the Dutch, while pressuring Portugal to return Guiana to France.

What I think might happen is Australia would be partitioned, with Britain returning the colony of *Australie while laying claim to its own "British Australia" elsewhere on the continent.
Could a French Australian colony also lead to a Dutch colony as well? And maybe even a portion that the Germans could claim? Australia could be part of a "Scramble" like Africa where you can't just claim a whole continent or even a quarter if you dont have the permanent settlements to back it up.

Any chance, even a 1% chance of an Antarctic Treaty-like situation where Australian claims are suspended for some pre-determined time period?
 
Could a French Australian colony also lead to a Dutch colony as well? And maybe even a portion that the Germans could claim? Australia could be part of a "Scramble" like Africa where you can't just claim a whole continent or even a quarter if you dont have the permanent settlements to back it up.

Any chance, even a 1% chance of an Antarctic Treaty-like situation where Australian claims are suspended for some pre-determined time period?

Maybe. It would probably depend on how early the claims are made. After the discovery of gold (1851 OTL), Britain probably wouldn't want to share the continent further.
 
So I recognize the problems vis a vis the British. Certainly I'd think they'd occupy any French settlement at some point during the Napoleonic Wars. I was thinking that a lot would depend on the specific circumstances. The nature, strength, size and location of the French settlement by say 1800 vs any possible British settlement. I'm guessing Surville isn't likely to mount a follow up expedition himself (he'd be in his mid fifties by then and the first would have been harrowing enough) so a lot depends on the choices made by du Fresne and Kerguelen. Maybe initial French colonization in OTL New South Wales and British colonization in Tasmania, or possibly around Albany in Western Australia or Dunedin, NZ. The French did seem to entertain a burst of (admittedly halfhearted) colonization ventures in the 1760s-70s as Bad@logic mentioned (Guiana, Malouines, Madagascar). Perhaps eastern Australia could provide a geographical setting where it would work. Hospitable enough to sustain a colony, far enough away to not threaten another power.

But no, it may not last. I could see British occupation in the late 1790's then a return to France at Amiens, a Napoleonic expedition to expand the colony and explore surrounding territory (equivalent to the Baudin expedition OTL) then another period of British occupation. I don't know if it would be reasonable to return it to France. The British kept Mauritius but returned Reunion. So depending on the circumstances it could probably go either way. But even if the French colony is ultimately permanently occupied/annexed by Britain the affects of Australia being founded as a French colony rather than a British penal settlement seem significant.

Also just a random thought but the Spanish set out a few voyages themselves, from Callao. Manuel de Amat seemed keen on the idea of using missionaries to establish a Spanish presence in Polynesia to counter the potential threat to Peru of a British toehold in Tahiti. Given that it was Bougainville's Malouine colony that seemed to start the scramble to claim the previously uninteresting Falkland Islands it would be interesting if a more successful series of French expeditions jump started a larger international competition in the Pacific, something that wend beyond the scientific expeditions of Vancouver, La Perouse and Malaspina towards actual colonization.
 
But Britain may not keep *Australie permanently. Remember that the Napoleonic Wars are ostensibly about restoring the House of Bourbon and France to something close to its pre-Revolutionary situation. Accordingly, while Britain made a few gains (Saint Lucia, Tobago and Mauritius from France; Cape Colony from the Dutch) it returned Martinique, Guadeloupe and Réunion to France, and Java to the Dutch, while pressuring Portugal to return Guiana to France.

What I think might happen is Australia would be partitioned, with Britain returning the colony of *Australie while laying claim to its own "British Australia" elsewhere on the continent.
Yes, the British returned most of the colonies. But most of the colonies were not very useful to the British. The British didn't want new Caribbean colonies, since their own sugar planters didn't want the competition, so it was fine to just correct the defeat of the last war. I'm not sure about the other ones, Java seems like it would have had some value to them, but Guyana was pretty worthless except as a prison colony. Cape Colony they did take, because of its great utility. Australia seems easily like it would fall into that sphere, as it would provide - if the French colony has lasted that long - a seemingly prosperous point for settler colonies.
 
discovery is only the start. During the time in question (mid to late 1700s) the only thing that mattered to the british was occupation. The Spanish beat Britain to Vancouver, but Britain brow beat the rights out of them. France beat them to Ohio Valley, but had the rights taken away forceably. To be fair, this was pretty much the game for everyone. The Spanish beat everyone to American south and Mississippi valley, but lost out on the rights when they were unable to occupy it.

So discovery doesn't mean squat. possession, as they say, is 9/10th of the law. whoever gets there with a settlement, and doesn't get pushed out holds on to it. As others asked, can France hold on to it?

By the time of the Nap wars, or at least their conclusion, settler colonies were a thing of the past. Britain (or any other country) had no problem shedding excess population with the breakdown of the Spanish empire combined with a USA begging for immigrants. Unless Australia has (edit: known at the time) valuable commodities, preferably minerals, Britain would not have enough use for it to bother keeping it if they ever bothered taking it from France during the Nap wars.
 
discovery is only the start. During the time in question (mid to late 1700s) the only thing that mattered to the british was occupation. The Spanish beat Britain to Vancouver, but Britain brow beat the rights out of them. France beat them to Ohio Valley, but had the rights taken away forceably. To be fair, this was pretty much the game for everyone. The Spanish beat everyone to American south and Mississippi valley, but lost out on the rights when they were unable to occupy it.

So discovery doesn't mean squat. possession, as they say, is 9/10th of the law. whoever gets there with a settlement, and doesn't get pushed out holds on to it. As others asked, can France hold on to it?

By the time of the Nap wars, or at least their conclusion, settler colonies were a thing of the past. Britain (or any other country) had no problem shedding excess population with the breakdown of the Spanish empire combined with a USA begging for immigrants. Unless Australia has (edit: known at the time) valuable commodities, preferably minerals, Britain would not have enough use for it to bother keeping it if they ever bothered taking it from France during the Nap wars.
As a point of fact- the British didn't browbeat the rights to Vancouver from the Spanish. That's not what the Nootka Convention did. Then in the Adams-Onis Treaty between the Spanish and the USA transferred the Spanish claims to the Americans. Then the Americans used the Spanish claims they received to boost their negotiations, then thanks to the British not feeling war was worth it when the American president bluffed and seemed willing to fight over the whole 54 40 and the British backed down and compromised. Not out of weakness but instead out of logical reason of war not being cost effective especially given how important American markets were to their economy.
 
Yes, the British returned most of the colonies. But most of the colonies were not very useful to the British. The British didn't want new Caribbean colonies, since their own sugar planters didn't want the competition, so it was fine to just correct the defeat of the last war. I'm not sure about the other ones, Java seems like it would have had some value to them, but Guyana was pretty worthless except as a prison colony. Cape Colony they did take, because of its great utility. Australia seems easily like it would fall into that sphere, as it would provide - if the French colony has lasted that long - a seemingly prosperous point for settler colonies.

Australia is huge. A British government wanting to have good relations with the restored Bourbon monarchy can give back the French colony and still have plenty of room to establish their own elsewhere. We have this conception of Australia as a single country but that just was the OTL outcome. It could have very easily been partitioned.
 
I think the French would act in Australia as they did in New Caledonia IOTL; we'd see convict colonies established, mineral resources mined, and genocide and enslavement against the Aborigines in favor of French landowners. However, the French were never as interested in settler colonial projects as the British; for this reason, we may see a higher surviving Aboriginal population in French Australia, as there are fewer settlers spreading diseases, disrupting the environment in which they get their food, and attacking the native peoples.

WASP spotted! Typical english dude. The French NEVER organised genocides around the world. This is an ENGLISH custom: genocide against the Natives in North America (yes, the "Americans" are culturally English), the Acadians, the Boers, the Africans, the Aborigines, etc.

Just compare the percentage of Natives in Australia with New Caledonia. Why are the English (Brits, Americans, Australians, English Canadians, etc.) always need to blame someone else in order to make us forget their despicable acts?

If North America was French, the proportion of Native Americans would be much higher. Same with Hawaii where Natives make up less than 6% of the population and where Hawaiian is no longer spoken. In French Polynesia, the Polynesian culture is well preserved and the Tahitian language is mandatory at school, even for Asian and European pupils.
 
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WASP spotted! Typical english dude. The French NEVER organised genocides around the world. This is an ENGLISH custom: genocide against the Natives in North America (yes, the "Americans" are culturally English), the Acadians, the Boers, the Africans, the Aborigines, etc.

Just compare the percentage of Natives in Australia with New Caledonia. Why are the English (Brits, Americans, Australians, English Canadians, etc.) always need to blame someone else in order to make us forget their despicable acts?

If North America was French, the proportion of Native Americans would be much higher. Same with Hawaii where Natives make up less than 6% of the population and where Hawaiian is no longer spoken. In French Polynesia, the Polynesian culture is well preserved and the Tahitian language is mandatory at school, even for Asian and European pupils.
Person who doesn't understand all humans are just as genocidal as the next spotted! And is ignorant of French history and world history in general. Do us all a favor and dont join in until you know what you're talking about.
 
Person who doesn't understand all humans are just as genocidal as the next spotted! And is ignorant of French history and world history in general. Do us all a favor and dont join in until you know what you're talking about.
Agree all Dominant Power/Country committed by today standard various crime against Humanity the Fact that a lot of them in Last century can be attributed to the British and French is due to the size of the colonial empire they ruled over.
 
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Could a French Australian colony also lead to a Dutch colony as well? And maybe even a portion that the Germans could claim? Australia could be part of a "Scramble" like Africa where you can't just claim a whole continent or even a quarter if you dont have the permanent settlements to back it up.

Any chance, even a 1% chance of an Antarctic Treaty-like situation where Australian claims are suspended for some pre-determined time period?

If any split of Australia happens, count on Eastern Australia being left unclaimed and being grabbed by good old Germany later on. The land is useless, so would not be consider the trouble to claim by other nations
 
As a point of fact- the British didn't browbeat the rights to Vancouver from the Spanish. That's not what the Nootka Convention did

It's absolutely what the Nootka convention did. Spain had a very legitimate claim to the Vancouver region. Britain counter claimed. Britain forced Spain to back down, making the region a land no one had technical rights to. meanwhile, Britain and later the US moved into the region while Spain, as par for the course at that time, didn't have the resources to move in. You are right about events post Nootka. Nootka, though, was all about keeping Spain from pressing claims of ownership, and succeeded. Britain only wanted to recognize Spain's claim to just north of San Francisco.
 
It's absolutely what the Nootka convention did. Spain had a very legitimate claim to the Vancouver region. Britain counter claimed. Britain forced Spain to back down, making the region a land no one had technical rights to. meanwhile, Britain and later the US moved into the region while Spain, as par for the course at that time, didn't have the resources to move in. You are right about events post Nootka. Nootka, though, was all about keeping Spain from pressing claims of ownership, and succeeded. Britain only wanted to recognize Spain's claim to just north of San Francisco.
That's NOT what Nootka did! Nootka is best described as doing similar to the British American condominium for Oregon/Columbia; or can be compared to the Antarctic Treaty. It put Britain and Spain to agree to halt in that particular small location within the Oregon/Columbia region, it specifically did NOT apply the whole region or settle the northern boundary of new spain. It basically made the small sound a neutral ground EVERYONE could participate in. It did not stop Spanish claims or limit them or put them away. Only the Adams-Onis Treaty ended Spanish claims by selling the claims to the Americans. Read history please instead of arguing. I'm not responding anymore to people who want to argue points of history without them knowing what they are talking about. Please don't respond.
 
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WASP spotted!

J’étais en fait baptiser Catholique. Mon père viens d’une famille très religieux.

Typical english dude. The French NEVER organised genocides around the world. This is an ENGLISH custom: genocide against the Natives in North America (yes, the "Americans" are culturally English), the Acadians, the Boers, the Africans, the Aborigines, etc.

Tell it to the Natchez. Anyway, there is plenty of violence that can be visited on a population that does not technically count as genocide; the Haitians, the Brazza Congolese, the Algerians, and many others have all suffered greatly under the tender ministrations of the French Empire.

Just compare the percentage of Natives in Australia with New Caledonia. Why are the English (Brits, Americans, Australians, English Canadians, etc.) always need to blame someone else in order to make us forget their despicable acts?

The Kanaks have suffered (and continue to suffer) quite despicable treatment. If you want to tell me that they were not victim of a genocide by the legal definition, I'm happy to concede if you provide actual evidence instead of insults. But the fact remains that the New Caledonians were disenfranchised, robbed of much of their land, and enslaved in large numbers. Their population dropped massively under the brutal colonialism of the French government; their desperation was so great that they rose up in rebellion and united across tribal divisions in the face of a more technologically advanced and brutal foe.

If North America was French, the proportion of Native Americans would be much higher. Same with Hawaii where Natives make up less than 6% of the population and where Hawaiian is no longer spoken. In French Polynesia, the Polynesian culture is well preserved and the Tahitian language is mandatory at school, even for Asian and European pupils.

This is all quite debatable. It is true that the French did not commit much violence against their Native allies in what is now Canada and the Midwest, but they were quite happy to butcher Native Americans in the Mississippi valley. Relatively better treatment of Natives seems more linked to general French apathy towards flooding colonies with settlers and the economic motivations of the settlers once they got to the colonies than any moral superiority in the French national character.
 
Please don't respond

you are quite correct that we should avoid each other. If you ever get to a point where you recognize that you don't know everything and that you aren't the final authority on everything and are willing to actually discuss an issue instead of lecturing, let me know, and we can converse.
 
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