WI Franco-Prussan War

[kent]

What if to try to heal the division of the North and the South faster. Presidant Grant after the capture of Napoleon III and the founding of the Third Republic in France, asks for and receives approval from Congress to send help to France in the form of food, military supplies and Volunteers.
How would Prussa react?
How would Great Britten react?
Grant in attempting this healing of North and South calls for the United States to help the country that helped us in the ARW. The call goes out "Remember Lafayette" France is now a Republic we most help them in their hour of need.

 

[Elfwine]

Trying to imagine how this would even remotely relate to the issue of national healing - or how it would go over, given the US's (lack of) interest in foreign wars.

 

[kent]

Trying to imagine how this would even remotely relate to the issue of national healing - or how it would go over, given the US's (lack of) interest in foreign wars.

This attempt at healing was used in the Spanish - American war. Why not sooner?

 

[Elfwine]

This attempt at healing was used in the Spanish - American war. Why not sooner?

Because that was a war the US cared about.

"Fight for a country we don't really care very much about in a conflict that means nothing to us!" is not really an effective means of inspiring much participation, and that is kind of what it boils down to - Lafayette's memory or not.

This is ignoring any other reasons, because it would boil down to a rant. Sufficient to say, the lack of US interest in the Franco-Prussian war is a problem.

Great Britain probably wouldn't care, and Prussia probably won't either - unless the US by some lucky chance is able to actually influence things, which is extremely doubtful. The US army, and even more so any volunteer units, is nothing compared to the Prussian army.

Meanwhile, simply sending food and other supplies...France doesn't really need those. Not in the sense we needed them a century or so ago.

Its a neat idea, but I don't think its going anywhere. Hopefully someone can point out the holes in my argument, though. This is one of the areas I'd be delighted to be wrong on - in this case because it would be a more interesting world if the US wasn't so committed to ignoring the rest of the world diplomatically/politically.

 

[Polish Eagle]

I believe there actually was a TL with this idea. "Answering the Call of Lafayette," or something similar.

That said, I don't think it'll change much. The Franco-Prussian War was a swift affair. By the time the US can muster the forces to send overseas, the Prussians will be in Paris. Grant would be universally denounced by domestic politicians as tying the US, just off its own bloody civil war, in a war between a bunch of "Frogs and Krauts." The most this will do, I think, is soil US-German relations for the remainder of the century, into the early 20th century. And possibly a more isolationist US (perhaps to the point of not bothering to take the Philippines from Spain later on, if that war even exists, which could result in those islands going to the Germans or even the Japanese, who both wanted those territories as well) that might not bother to get involved in the first World War (again, assuming that that still happens).

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Agreeing with Elfwine here, why would the USA care about European geopolitics?

It wasn't until Wilson that the USA really cared about European wars; sure the Spanish-American war was fought against a European once-power but the operations were strictly colonial in character.

 

[kent]

Agreeing with Elfwine here, why would the USA care about European geopolitics?

It wasn't until Wilson that the USA really cared about European wars; sure the Spanish-American war was fought against a European once-power but the operations were strictly colonial in character.

I think that what some are forgetting is the power of the press. Horace Greeley could have pushed the press to back President Grant. While the nation may not have gave two bits any European country in OTL. This is a question of what if, not what was.

 

[Elfwine]

I think that what some are forgetting is the power of the press. Horace Greeley could have pushed the press to back President Grant. While the nation may not have gave two bits any European country in OTL. This is a question of what if, not what was.

The problem, kent, is that there's a fine line between "what could have been, if the Gods were kind" and "what could have been, if my fantasies were real".

Why would Grant have this idea to begin with? Why would Greeley agree to support it? How is Greeley going to be able to influence the press to back Grant's idea? Would the American people have any enthusiasm for this anyway?

You can't just toss out an idea, however cool, and say it could have happened regardless of what the situation was in OTL. You have to have something that could potentially have happened or you'll get answers like the ones ones you've gotten so far.

 

[robertp6165]

I believe there actually was a TL with this idea. "Answering the Call of Lafayette," or something similar.

Yep...one of mine. You can read it here.

In order to make the scenario work, there had to be several PODs which occurred well before the Franco-Prussian War.

1) Napoleon III doesn't get deeply involved in Mexico, withdrawing following the Battle of Puebla in May 1862.

2) Napoleon III throws his full support behind the Union, and persuades the British to deny the Confederacy access to British arms and supplies. This leads to the Civil War ending in Union victory in mid-1863.

3) The defeat at Puebla leads the French to reorganize their army and mobilization system early (in OTL, they didn't start until after the Austro-Prussian War and the reforms weren't fully in place before the Franco-Prussian War). Furthermore, after the Civil War, the Union sends Hermann Haupt to assist them with the reform of their mobilization plan.

The results of all this are that the French Army is dramatically more combat ready in 1870 when the Franco-Prussian War breaks out, allowing them to hold the Prussians long enough for America to intervene. Furthermore, France and the USA have excellent relations and the Union feels it has a debt to Nappy III for his assistance during the Civil War. So they immediately begin shipping huge amounts of munitions to France when the war breaks out. Prussia reacts by sending commerce raiders out to prey on American shipping. This leads America to declare war.

 

[kent]

The problem, kent, is that there's a fine line between "what could have been, if the Gods were kind" and "what could have been, if my fantasies were real".

Why would Grant have this idea to begin with? Why would Greeley agree to support it? How is Greeley going to be able to influence the press to back Grant's idea? Would the American people have any enthusiasm for this anyway?

Grant could have seen how the rest of Europe was reacting to the rise of the Third Republic, and saw a way to reunite the Nation behind the idea of saving France. Greeley could have started the idea of the Yellow Press sooner, as Herest did in the late 1890's which is how the press pushed for war with Spain.
I see the idea as possible not fantasies. Has nothing to do with kind Gods or ASBs. Over and over I see discssions started that do not go along with OTL thinking that are shot down because some do not see that small butterflies could happen.

 

[Elfwine]

Grant could have seen how the rest of Europe was reacting to the rise of the Third Republic, and saw a way to reunite the Nation behind the idea of saving France. Greeley could have started the idea of the Yellow Press sooner, as Herest did in the late 1890's which is how the press pushed for war with Spain.

Why would Grant see it as a way to reunite the nation? Involving the US in a war that no one has any interest in won't go very far.

And I'm not sure about the yellow journalism starting sooner, or how it would come up with something to change American apathy.

I see the idea as possible not fantasies. Has nothing to do with kind Gods or ASBs. Over and over I see discssions started that do not go along with OTL thinking that are shot down because some do not see that small butterflies could happen.

Because OTL thinking and circumstances are the foundation from which the structure of an alternate history has to be built.

As for kind Gods, my point there - possibly ill-worded - is that there's a difference between tweaks that work within what the circumstances of the time, altering details, and something that would be an enormous leap based on them.

Currently, the Franco-Prussian war is too irrelevant to the United States for a point of departure that starts with "Grant has an idea!" to go very far.