WI - Effects of Maratha India

[Deleted member 116192]

That last sentence is based on absolutely nothing. To have 10% in India's border given @Srihari14 is not possible even by 1890. Bengal is the most populated region. How are they going to convert in masse without tensions reaching space? In such case Britain will take advantage of India like with Qing China.

Have you heard of the Bengal famine of 1770 in which 30-40 percent of the population was dead imagine that being much worse because of the maratha hostility against British and Muslim rule

I am telling you Marathas were not saints if they know a famine is taking place they will make it worse with blockade so as to incite the population to rebel against the British rule plus making Bengal a war field between the British and Marathas will only make the famine worse

Bengal population in 1769 based upon EIC sources is just 30 million imagine the famine being worse killing say instead of 10 million they kill 15 million because of the war which results in disruption of food supplies from other provinces out of a population of 189 million you have just 15 million of whom 5 million are Hindu and you have 10 million converting 2 or 3 million is hard but possible then you have 8 million Muslims still you can have 20 million Muslims in punjab and in Hyderabad region which would mean 17 precent muslim population post Bengal famine so by gradual and peaceful conversion over a period of time the gradual conversion can reduce it to 10

 

[Deleted member 116192]

That last sentence is based on absolutely nothing. To have 10% in India's border given @Srihari14 is not possible even by 1890. Bengal is the most populated region. How are they going to convert in masse without tensions reaching space? In such case Britain will take advantage of India like with Qing China.

Nah I didn't mean it at the border sorry about that I meant in the whole country

 

[Deleted member 116192]

Then you had many famines that depopulated Indian cities and cities are the mainly centres of Muslim population at that time, the doji bara famine killed another 11-15 million people, if the marathas turn re -conquistador mode they can use it to their advantage, what I am saying is if the marathas wanted to do so they have the opportunity to do it

 

[Srihari14]

Have you heard of the Bengal famine of 1770 in which 30-40 percent of the population was dead imagine that being much worse because of the maratha hostility against British and Muslim rule

I am telling you Marathas were not saints if they know a famine is taking place they will make it worse with blockade so as to incite the population to rebel against the British rule plus making Bengal a war field between the British and Marathas will only make the famine worse

Bengal population in 1769 based upon EIC sources is just 30 million imagine the famine being worse killing say instead of 10 million they kill 15 million because of the war which results in disruption of food supplies from other provinces out of a population of 189 million you have just 15 million of whom 5 million are Hindu and you have 10 million converting 2 or 3 million is hard but possible then you have 8 million Muslims still you can have 20 million Muslims in punjab and in Hyderabad region which would mean 17 precent muslim population post Bengal famine so by gradual and peaceful conversion over a period of time the gradual conversion can reduce it to 10

Muslim population did not significant increase till the 19th and 20th century, for example, look at this chart, where we could see increase in Muslims, it is not unreasonable to assume that Muslims could be converted to Hinduism in Maratha India

 

[Srihari14]

So from the Polls, is it an agreement that India would be better?

 

[Srihari14]

This is how I predict Maratha India would be like -

1. Marathas Would become the one of the Dominant powers of Asia
2. European Powers will constantly team up and harass Maratha, they will even hold coastal cities like Goa and Pondicherry
3. Thus Marathas would be similar to How the Qings, with unable to cope up with Europe
4. Marathas would be successful in "Hindu Reconquista", with being able to convert Majority of the Population of Muslims Back to Hinduism
5. Probably over 90% of population practising Hinduism
6. Sikhism would still remain as a religion would not face hostilities from Marathas, as such the Faith would still exist, though there might be Blurred Lines between the Two
7. Sanskrit would become Popular again as it was the Language of the Marathas, it might even become the largest Language in India
8. India would be the sole country In South Asia, with anything outside India being considered a different Region

This is how I predict India would be till 20th century, feel free to give your opinion as well

 

[Masked Grizzly]

What would be the impact of Burma being divided between the Maratha and the Qing, the latter via successful ATL invasions of Burma with the Qing potentially having access to the Bay of Bengal?

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

With all due respect I think this whole thing is pretty asb. First of all, you haven’t really addressed the terribly fragmented nature of the Maratha “state” with each chief acting completely independently of the Peshwa and the civil war upon civil war that will follow. This decentralised state of affairs had been going on for a while before PoD. Furthermore, most Hindu powers felt absolutely zero Hindu solidarity with the Marathas (Rajputs) and each local power would constantly be driving for independence. Even if they won at panipat, any attempt to actually depose the Mughals would’ve resulted in disaster because every local magnate (including the Marathas) depended on the legacy of mughal power to justify their rule . A Hindu reconquista is completely asb, no ruler in Indian history has ever converted large segments of the population.
Also the assumption that China would be colonised? The reason China had been such a hard market to open up was that the Europeans didn’t have much the Chinese wanted and it was getting Bengal that allowed them to produce enough opium to crack that market. Without colonial India, China is safe.
Also I have a feeling that an india-less Britain couldn’t resist napoleons continental system, so this world is also Napoléonic victory.
And Sanskrit, I don’t know where you’re getting that revival from, Sanskrit was used as an administrative language and a liturgical language sure but it could never make a dent in the regional languages actually spoken by the common people.

My predictions for a Maratha victory at panipat is after managing to collect revenue from areas from a vast area, maybe even the entirety of the old Mughal domains, but before stable administration could be secured, the Maratha state falls into a long and protracted civil war, with tensions fanned and various sides backed by different european powers. This would, by the 1800s mean that regional states, with a few having Maratha descended monarchies and many indebted to various Europeans rule in India.

If they managed to maintain a semblance of imperial unity up until the 1800s (incredibly unlikely considering the Europeans would be exerting their entire might to prevent this) they would be pretty much Indian Qing.

Finally, I would just like to say- I think it’s a shame that the Marathas have been seized on by modern Hindu nationalism as freedom fighters for a Hindu India against the big bad Muslims when they actually represented an extremely syncretic Indoislamic culture.

 

[Srihari14]

What would be the impact of Burma being divided between the Maratha and the Qing, the latter via successful ATL invasions of Burma with the Qing potentially having access to the Bay of Bengal?

A much more tense India China relations, as now they have border through which soldiers can pass unlike the Himalayas

 

[Srihari14]

With all due respect I think this whole thing is pretty asb. First of all, you haven’t really addressed the terribly fragmented nature of the Maratha “state” with each chief acting completely independently of the Peshwa and the civil war upon civil war that will follow. This decentralised state of affairs had been going on for a while before PoD. Furthermore, most Hindu powers felt absolutely zero Hindu solidarity with the Marathas (Rajputs) and each local power would constantly be driving for independence. Even if they won at panipat, any attempt to actually depose the Mughals would’ve resulted in disaster because every local magnate (including the Marathas) depended on the legacy of mughal power to justify their rule . A Hindu reconquista is completely asb, no ruler in Indian history has ever converted large segments of the population.
Also the assumption that China would be colonised? The reason China had been such a hard market to open up was that the Europeans didn’t have much the Chinese wanted and it was getting Bengal that allowed them to produce enough opium to crack that market. Without colonial India, China is safe.
Also I have a feeling that an india-less Britain couldn’t resist napoleons continental system, so this world is also Napoléonic victory.
And Sanskrit, I don’t know where you’re getting that revival from, Sanskrit was used as an administrative language and a liturgical language sure but it could never make a dent in the regional languages actually spoken by the common people.

My predictions for a Maratha victory at panipat is after managing to collect revenue from areas from a vast area, maybe even the entirety of the old Mughal domains, but before stable administration could be secured, the Maratha state falls into a long and protracted civil war, with tensions fanned and various sides backed by different european powers. This would, by the 1800s mean that regional states, with a few having Maratha descended monarchies and many indebted to various Europeans rule in India.

If they managed to maintain a semblance of imperial unity up until the 1800s (incredibly unlikely considering the Europeans would be exerting their entire might to prevent this) they would be pretty much Indian Qing.

Finally, I would just like to say- I think it’s a shame that the Marathas have been seized on by modern Hindu nationalism as freedom fighters for a Hindu India against the big bad Muslims when they actually represented an extremely syncretic Indoislamic culture.

1. I agree the scenario is ASB or very hard to achieve, which is why I asked the effects of Maratha India instead of How Maratha India came to be
2. I agree with you that China will not be colonised
3. Yes, you are true as many Hindus never really found solidarity with each other due to it being much more decentralised and it differed from Place to Place, however, again, I wanted effects of Maratha India, not how it came to be
4. I agree, Marathas would become like Qing, with their own century of Humiliation
5. Sanskrit would be a good national language to unify the country, and most of Indian languages are influenced heavily by Sanskrit
6. Perhaps you are true, Napoleon would win in Europe
7. You are again true, Marathas were Indo Islamic in culture, though it is no reason to assume they might want to get rid of the Islamic influence in the future

 

[Kishan]

1. I agree the scenario is ASB or very hard to achieve, which is why I asked the effects of Maratha India instead of How Maratha India came to be
2. I agree with you that China will not be colonised
3. Yes, you are true as many Hindus never really found solidarity with each other due to it being much more decentralised and it differed from Place to Place, however, again, I wanted effects of Maratha India, not how it came to be
4. I agree, Marathas would become like Qing, with their own century of Humiliation
5. Sanskrit would be a good national language to unify the country, and most of Indian languages are influenced heavily by Sanskrit
6. Perhaps you are true, Napoleon would win in Europe
7. You are again true, Marathas were Indo Islamic in culture, though it is no reason to assume they might want to get rid of the Islamic influence in the future

For the Maratha Empire, the victory in Panipat is absolutely essential to emerge as the principal actor on the political stage of India. The states of Hyderabad and Mysore must be neutralized by annexation or alliance. If possible the first option is better. The Sikh state in Punjab must be brought into an alliance. An alliance with the French also may be tried to face the more powerful British. The British have to be eliminated entirely or confined to one or two trading ports. If these goals can be achieved the Marathas can emerge as the sole master of the subcontinent. But the primary condition for emerging powerful is the elimination of all internal troubles. The Peshwa must tightly control the reins of power and the generals must be kept under strict discipline. Any attempt by any general to act independently must be strictly prevented. The control of the military must be centralized and the soldiers should be directly paid by the Peshwa himself. To achieve all this a succession of able and farsighted Peshwas is necessary.

 

[Srihari14]

For the Maratha Empire, the victory in Panipat is absolutely essential to emerge as the principal actor on the political stage of India. The states of Hyderabad and Mysore must be neutralized by annexation or alliance. If possible the first option is better. The Sikh state in Punjab must be brought into an alliance. An alliance with the French also may be tried to face the more powerful British. The British have to be eliminated entirely or confined to one or two trading ports. If these goals can be achieved the Marathas can emerge as the sole master of the subcontinent. But the primary condition for emerging powerful is the elimination of all internal troubles. The Peshwa must tightly control the reins of power and the generals must be kept under strict discipline. Any attempt by any general to act independently must be strictly prevented. The control of the military must be centralized and the soldiers should be directly paid by the Peshwa himself. To achieve all this a succession of able and farsighted Peshwas is necessary.

Yes I know it is a hard Timeline, which is why I want Effects Of Maratha India rather than how Maratha India came to be

 

[AnotherTime]

This is how I predict Maratha India would be like -

1. Marathas Would become the one of the Dominant powers of Asia
2. European Powers will constantly team up and harass Maratha, they will even hold coastal cities like Goa and Pondicherry
3. Thus Marathas would be similar to How the Qings, with unable to cope up with Europe
4. Marathas would be successful in "Hindu Reconquista", with being able to convert Majority of the Population of Muslims Back to Hinduism
5. Probably over 90% of population practising Hinduism
6. Sikhism would still remain as a religion would not face hostilities from Marathas, as such the Faith would still exist, though there might be Blurred Lines between the Two
7. Sanskrit would become Popular again as it was the Language of the Marathas, it might even become the largest Language in India
8. India would be the sole country In South Asia, with anything outside India being considered a different Region

This is how I predict India would be till 20th century, feel free to give your opinion as well

1: Most likely- but that would only happen if the Marathas fix their administrative system and modernise their economy.
2: I don't think that would be the case. Instead, you'd have various European powers trying to curry flavour (pun not intended) with the Marathas- vying to get the best trade deal. Of course, I'm assuming that the Marathas won't be as weak as the late Qing Empire.
3: What do you mean by this? I'm confused by what you meant.
4: This is a Hindu nationalist retelling of Maratha history. The Marathas didn't see themselves as the 'bastion of Hinduism', they saw themselves as Marathas. You wouldn't see a 'Hindu Reconquista' at all, but you could see a greater patronage of temples (to be fair, Muslim rulers were also great patrons of building/preserving temples).
5: I think 75-85% of the population would be Hindus. +90% seems too ASB.
6: Agreed
7: Disagree. Unless European-style nationalism (AKA: one language, one people, one state) takes hold in India, Sanskrit wouldn't be the largest language in India. Regional languages would still be popular. However, it's possible that Sanskrit would be seen as the language of government and administration (and could perhaps gain a greater status than Persian or Hindustani).
8: Agreed, but who controls Afghanistan? The Durranis (or some other Afghan power)? Marathas? Iran? Some other power?

 

[Srihari14]

1: Most likely- but that would only happen if the Marathas fix their administrative system and modernise their economy.
2: I don't think that would be the case. Instead, you'd have various European powers trying to curry flavour (pun not intended) with the Marathas- vying to get the best trade deal. Of course, I'm assuming that the Marathas won't be as weak as the late Qing Empire.
3: What do you mean by this? I'm confused by what you meant.
4: This is a Hindu nationalist retelling of Maratha history. The Marathas didn't see themselves as the 'bastion of Hinduism', they saw themselves as Marathas. You wouldn't see a 'Hindu Reconquista' at all, but you could see a greater patronage of temples (to be fair, Muslim rulers were also great patrons of building/preserving temples).
5: I think 75-85% of the population would be Hindus. +90% seems too ASB.
6: Agreed
7: Disagree. Unless European-style nationalism (AKA: one language, one people, one state) takes hold in India, Sanskrit wouldn't be the largest language in India. Regional languages would still be popular. However, it's possible that Sanskrit would be seen as the language of government and administration (and could perhaps gain a greater status than Persian or Hindustani).
8: Agreed, but who controls Afghanistan? The Durranis (or some other Afghan power)? Marathas? Iran? Some other power?

1. Agreed, Marathas need to fix up their internal policies
2. Like the Eight Nation alliance, we could European nations coming together to beat India incase they get too poweful
3. Like Qing, I meant that Marathas would exist but would stagnate like the Qings
4. I am not saying the Marathas would go and convert all Muslims, but over centuries of Hindu Rule of Muslims, many will be forced to Convert to Hinduism, and yes, we could atleast 85% plus Hinduism in South Asia
5. Again agreed, Sanskrit would be used in Administration and over time Sanskrit would become popular with the locals
6. Afghanistan is Split between India, Persia and Russia

 

[Srihari14]

I made this map long ago, but his is what roughly India would look Like -

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

yes, The clause here I put was that Marathas Control all of India by 1800s, so it could Happen
what would British do without India?

Perhaps keep the Dutch East Indies as they did South Africa following the Napoleonic Wars? (assuming of course that they're expelled from India late enough for the butterflies to not interfere too much with the French Revolution)

 

[Srihari14]

Perhaps keep the Dutch East Indies as they did South Africa following the Napoleonic Wars? (assuming of course that they're expelled from India late enough for the butterflies to not interfere too much with the French Revolution)

that would be interesting, with British Indonesia covering Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea and Singapore

 

[Deleted member 116192]

With all due respect I think this whole thing is pretty asb. First of all, you haven’t really addressed the terribly fragmented nature of the Maratha “state” with each chief acting completely independently of the Peshwa and the civil war upon civil war that will follow. This decentralised state of affairs had been going on for a while before PoD. Furthermore, most Hindu powers felt absolutely zero Hindu solidarity with the Marathas (Rajputs) and each local power would constantly be driving for independence. Even if they won at panipat, any attempt to actually depose the Mughals would’ve resulted in disaster because every local magnate (including the Marathas) depended on the legacy of mughal power to justify their rule . A Hindu reconquista is completely asb, no ruler in Indian history has ever converted large segments of the population.
Also the assumption that China would be colonised? The reason China had been such a hard market to open up was that the Europeans didn’t have much the Chinese wanted and it was getting Bengal that allowed them to produce enough opium to crack that market. Without colonial India, China is safe.
Also I have a feeling that an india-less Britain couldn’t resist napoleons continental system, so this world is also Napoléonic victory.
And Sanskrit, I don’t know where you’re getting that revival from, Sanskrit was used as an administrative language and a liturgical language sure but it could never make a dent in the regional languages actually spoken by the common people.

My predictions for a Maratha victory at panipat is after managing to collect revenue from areas from a vast area, maybe even the entirety of the old Mughal domains, but before stable administration could be secured, the Maratha state falls into a long and protracted civil war, with tensions fanned and various sides backed by different european powers. This would, by the 1800s mean that regional states, with a few having Maratha descended monarchies and many indebted to various Europeans rule in India.

If they managed to maintain a semblance of imperial unity up until the 1800s (incredibly unlikely considering the Europeans would be exerting their entire might to prevent this) they would be pretty much Indian Qing.

Finally, I would just like to say- I think it’s a shame that the Marathas have been seized on by modern Hindu nationalism as freedom fighters for a Hindu India against the big bad Muslims when they actually represented an extremely syncretic Indoislamic culture.

I don't know how Hindu reconquest became such a big deal, I clearly used the word 'may 'and I even expressed my doubts about it, I just said that even though it's unlikely one cannot rule Out the possibility and the rest of the sorry argument was based upon the assumption of Maratha ,as a pod in this timeline ,doing a Spanish style reconquest when I was actually doing argument on to what extent can reconquest takes place if the Maratha do a Spanish style re conquest hence the argument over percentage of Muslim's in india

Even I too agree Hindu reconquest is not possible but Hindus harassing Muslim is entirely possible not for conversion but for humiliation which is entirely different than forced conversion that Hindu reconquest would entail

As for Maratha unity well just have peshwa baji Rao living longer and peshwa sadashiv Rao ruling only for 7 or 8 years before succeeded by peshwa madhavrao then you can do away with a lot of the civil war and have Madhav Rao not die of tuberculosis and lives a normal life span of say 62 years
Peshwa sadashiv Rao was a disaster in my opinion

India won't be a super power but would be like ottoman empire but not exactly like it as India would do well economically but international relation wise it would face a similar situation
When I said China would be colonized I did not mean British colonialism in Africa or India I mean what the British and the Russians did In Iran . Which looked like colonialism, felt like colonialism but was not colonialism in the strictest sense of the word but still it's colonialism or proto neo colonialism

 

[Srihari14]

I don't know how Hindu reconquest became such a big deal, I clearly used the word 'may 'and I even expressed my doubts about it, I just said that even though it's unlikely one cannot rule Out the possibility and the rest of the sorry argument was based upon the assumption of Maratha ,as a pod in this timeline ,doing a Spanish style reconquest when I was actually doing argument on to what extent can reconquest takes place if the Maratha do a Spanish style re conquest hence the argument over percentage of Muslim's in india

Even I too agree Hindu reconquest is not possible but Hindus harassing Muslim is entirely possible not for conversion but for humiliation which is entirely different than forced conversion that Hindu reconquest would entail

As for Maratha unity well just have peshwa baji Rao living longer and peshwa sadashiv Rao ruling only for 7 or 8 years before succeeded by peshwa madhavrao then you can do away with a lot of the civil war and have Madhav Rao not die of tuberculosis and lives a normal life span of say 62 years
Peshwa sadashiv Rao was a disaster in my opinion

India won't be a super power but would be like ottoman empire but not exactly like it as India would do well economically but international relation wise it would face a similar situation
When I said China would be colonized I did not mean British colonialism in Africa or India I mean what the British and the Russians did In Iran . Which looked like colonialism, felt like colonialism but was not colonialism in the strictest sense of the word but still it's colonialism or proto neo colonialism

That is reasonable enough, with India occupying a similar position to Ottomans, strong but not a real threat and yes, China would probably be a victim of neo colonialism

 

[Srihari14]

1: Most likely- but that would only happen if the Marathas fix their administrative system and modernise their economy.
2: I don't think that would be the case. Instead, you'd have various European powers trying to curry flavour (pun not intended) with the Marathas- vying to get the best trade deal. Of course, I'm assuming that the Marathas won't be as weak as the late Qing Empire.
3: What do you mean by this? I'm confused by what you meant.
4: This is a Hindu nationalist retelling of Maratha history. The Marathas didn't see themselves as the 'bastion of Hinduism', they saw themselves as Marathas. You wouldn't see a 'Hindu Reconquista' at all, but you could see a greater patronage of temples (to be fair, Muslim rulers were also great patrons of building/preserving temples).
5: I think 75-85% of the population would be Hindus. +90% seems too ASB.
6: Agreed
7: Disagree. Unless European-style nationalism (AKA: one language, one people, one state) takes hold in India, Sanskrit wouldn't be the largest language in India. Regional languages would still be popular. However, it's possible that Sanskrit would be seen as the language of government and administration (and could perhaps gain a greater status than Persian or Hindustani).
8: Agreed, but who controls Afghanistan? The Durranis (or some other Afghan power)? Marathas? Iran? Some other power?

Also about Sanskrit, If Indonesia can enforce Bahasa Indonesia all over its country, then there is no reason to not assume that Marathas could enforce Sanskrit across India