Don't worry about the formating. Thanks for your detailed answers! They were really insightful and single-handely carried this thread. Happy holidays!
WI: Centralized HRE in 14th century?
- Thread starter hirsch91
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thanks again and happy holidays to you too, it was a pleasure to answer you, because the topic is really interesting, it is unfortunately little used, furthermore as an Italian it bothers me that people think of the HRE as only for Germany, because if that were the case, what sense would the crowns of Italy and the imperial one have ?, why did the Otl Habsburgs ""waste"' a lot of blood for the Italian wars ?, why did Max and then Charles want to be crowned in Rome at all costs ?, Frederick II himself (my absolute favorite sovereign) according to this reasoning does not exist ?, given that he considered Germany a barbaricum compared to his Italy, what did the many Emperors who during the Middle Ages came to Italy several times, on holiday by chance ?, certainly not !
however, remaining on the topic, I would say that the Habsburgs / the imperial office would have had an easier life if one of the following 3 things had happened : the first is a Frederick II who lives longer, manages to subjugate yet another Lombard league and decides to make another trip over the Alps to control the situation in Germany, this alone would have allowed an easier government for his successors, because even with the chaos of Otl, at least the bases would have remained, the second is that another Frederick, the third with this name, had been more proactive in his imperial policy, I'm not saying a lot but at least a bit more than Otl, allowing his house to be stronger within the Reich, perhaps facilitating Maximilian's subsequent government , the other concerns instead the maintenance of a policy conceived by the first emperors, namely that of giving possessions in Italy as a fief to the German magnates, so as to further tie them to the imperial faction, in particular if they want to maintain control over said territories, this in turn it creates links between the two nobilities of the empire and increases their interest in remaining cohesive, there would be many others, up until Charles IV ( 1 ) or Sigismund I of possible changes to have an HRE equally concentrated between Italy and Germany and directed towards centralization, even after this " limit " period one could intervene in this regard but with much more difficulty, my solution is just a simple compromise route that I think is technically suitable and feasible in any pre-Protestant Reformation period of history HRE, but even after it, I basically created a discussion on the Habsburg ideas to deal with the political chaos created by Luther and Friends, in particular on Charles V
1 ) for example, many Italians were very angry with Charles of Luxembourg, because he visited Italy and Rome for very little time, compared to his predecessors or successors, just as he was not very active in local politics, which was poorly tolerated, given that technically he was the guardian, referee and legitimate ruler, even more so in this period that the Pope was not physically present in the peninsula
If you want, when you have more questions about it, I'll try to answer you if I can 😉, This discussion does not deserve to be overlooked 😇
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as another situation directly influenced by this, would be the land expansion of the Republic of San Marco, which having to do with a more cohesive HRE and which can concentrate on Italy, will not be able to and will not want to expand inland, as instead did in particular in the 14 / 15th century Otl, now discussing the possible fates of the many Venetian and partly Lombard cities that do not end up under the control of the Doge would be complicated, but at the same time interesting, certainly Brescia, Crema, Cremona and Bergamo and perhaps also Verona ( if the Scaligeri fall like Otl ) they will be in the sights of the Visconti dynasty in particular if they become the imperial representatives on site, but I hardly see the other local political figures accepting this, so it would be a really complicated game of balances, as it is it would be to face the enormous problem called Rome, because in the event that the papacy was humiliated by France like Otl, then in the regions of the papal state there would be total chaos, and a direct imperial intervention to fix the situation cannot be ruled out ( after all Otl the Emperors they spent a lot of time in the capital in this period, above all to prevent Naples from subjugating the entire papal state in one fell swoop, or a deflagration of the state, just look at the relations between Cola di Rienzo and Charles IV and the Otl papacy, here too a wasted opportunity... ) but instead if we go with the scenario I thought of, that is, that a more stable Habsburg government would have changed the evolution of the challenge between Boniface and Philip of France, then things change tune, and we need to find a point of agreement between the empire and the papacy in case the political actions of the former in the peninsula worry the latter, which could be economic concessions or something else ( depending on the pontiff in office, I would try the territorial gain card, it could work, of course it must be an agreement that benefits both, but at least it would force Rome to be on the side same part of the Emperor in the unlikely event that something like the Reformation or the Hussites arises ( although I think it would be very unlikely for such a thing to happen in this scenario )
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here I am again to discuss this interesting topic, let's start where we left off, i.e. with the Habsburgs who have a fair amount of control over Royal Italy ( Venice excluded ) as well as being well advanced for the simplification of the state HRE system in its entirety ( possibly creating one suitable for all the kingdoms making up the Reich ) this allows, as already mentioned, the imperial family to have extra resources to use elsewhere ( both outside and inside the Empire ), I believe that the first area we will see be put under d attention from the Habsburgs, both Bavaria ( where in this Otl period there were tremendous fratricidal wars between the various branches of the Wittelsbachs, After all, even just a small part of it would be enough for the Habsburgs ) and subsequently Swabia, for three obvious reasons, the first being that they allow the disparate Habsburg territories to be easily connected in a single entity, the second is that it allows the Habsburgs to control the valley where the Danube and the Rhine almost meet and which can become an important economic artery if developed adequately ( in particular by completing the project of building the canal between the two rivers , already attempted by the Romans and by Charlemagne ) the third which I believe to be the most important, is that it places the vast majority of the Alpine passes in complete Imperial hands, so as to simplify communication or intervention in the peninsula, which in turn influences also on trade and the possibility of exercising a real government ( albeit light ) over it, this would put the Habsburgs even more firmly on the throne, as well as increasing their prestige and economic possibilities which would easily outclass the vast majority of existing princes ( electors included, thus making them less threatening ( 1 ), in turn all this would lead to a previous growth of the city of Vienna much earlier than what happened historically, making it a much more suitable place for a prestigious university ( see what Charles IV did in Prague Otl ) and the title of archbishopric, making the city the focal point for the formation of a first-rate cultural center ( it will be interesting to see what effect a Renaissance ATL will have on the liveliness of the city, because I still imagine that we will see something similar, after all it was a process already started and which had its basis in the 12th / 13th century Italy ( 2 )
1 ) although I would have some doubts in particular about Milan and Bohemia ( as wealth at their disposal, compared to the imperial dynasty, I mean )
2 ) only that I see in this alternative trend a greater emphasis on the role of the empire in general, in particular in Germany it will be interesting if we see greater interest in the ruins of the Roman cities present there, perhaps the Habsburgs will want to surround themselves with references to this past that they share all their subjects
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I decided to add two more small concepts to this very interesting topic, after having analyzed at length the process of federalization and state centralization by the Habsburg Emperors, I would like to highlight another detail that I consider important, namely the possibility of seeing a continuation of imperial influence in the Papal Elections, I am certainly not saying that the Habsburgs will be able to do like the first Ottonians / Salians who could changes the Popes at will, but it is also not certain that we will see a new chapter in the wars between Guelphs and Ghibellines, especially if Boniface will continue to seek conflict with the allies of Philip IV of France ( the so-called allies of the king were the Roman nobility strongly hostile to papal policies, primarily the Colonnas, who decided to find an agreement with France, based on of the saying : the enemy of my enemy is my friend ) given that the papacy would potentially find itself surrounded by Philip's allies ( to the north by France, to the south by Angevin Naples and the Colonna themselves within the papal state, who proselytize between the nobility and the cardinals dissatisfied with the government of Boniface ) it is logical to think that the pontiff will immediately seek the protection / support of the Emperor, this fact allows the Habsburgs to find themselves in a contractual position of strength towards Rome, which can be spent in different scenarios : from the confirmation of the new legal structure of the Empire ( the ATL Golden Bull which includes all 3 of the constituent kingdoms of the HRE ), from a possible request for co-management of the ecclesiastical territories in the Reich ( 1 ), to an expansion of imperial representation in the curia ( 2 ) , certainly Rome may not always agree, but the choice would be between becoming a French puppet ( or worse, a schism ) or risking having to deal with an anti-Pope ( 3 ), this could lead to the occasional non-Italian/Roman pontiff being elected, who is not almost exclusively French, continuing the process of internationalization underway in the papacy which was abruptly interrupted with the Avignon captivity and above all with the Western schism and the terrifying Italian wars
1 ) which would further support the position of government of the Emperor in Germany, and which could also lead to a slight suppression and secularization of the territories in the hands of religious bodies deemed not to comply with the rules of canon law or no longer necessary, see for example the Sword -Bearing Knights Order which was surprised in the 13th / 14th century in Otl, who was merged into the Livonian knights
2 ) which in Otl in this period began to wane, being rapidly replaced by French and then Spanish influence, see the growing number of popes and cardinals coming from these countries if compared to the "German" ones, the comparison is merciless, France has three times as many pontiffs ( 14 in total ) compared to the German part of the HRE ( 5 in total )
3 ) in Otl Louis IV was the last Emperor to depose a pontiff, it means imposing his own candidate in his place , although the Avignon captivity helped him greatly in doing this, given that the " legitimate Pope " was not technically present in Rome, but rather in France
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I believe that the best POD for a "centralized HRE under the Habsburgs" would be a generation earlier, I think that the seeds for the first downfall of the Habsburgs was the death of Rudolf II so early, if instead Wenceslau II died Rudolf would be able to take the throne from his nephew or at least the Habsburgs would be able to completely dominate Bohemia during his minority since the mother of the king was the sister of Rudolf and Albert. Even if Wenceslaus III became king, if he died early like OTL John the Parricide could become the king of Bohemia.
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Everyone's a gangsta until the Habsburgs finally get their act together and start march on Rome kicking the latest round of the investiture controversy,
Honestly a rejuvinated HRE in the Renaissance as a result of these changes sounds really interesting. It completely changes its dynamics as the Italy would more or less be united with the Empire and it wouldn't be so fragmented. That could have a big impact on the later Crusades and the survival of the remaining Crusader states.
One of the lamentations of Renaissance thinkers was the "waste" of talent , funds and men which could have been used to help advance Italy as a major power. Honestly with a revived HRE, I could see the Emperors try to reassert power in France and perhaps get involved in the Reconquista. If somehow the Spanish throne goes to the Holy Roman Emperor, I could definitely see the Empire just outright try to invade and subjugate France.
There certainly won't be a Protestant Reformation either as that would probably be crushed.
continuing along this line, we can further imagine that Habsburg policy in Italy could expand through two methods that were attempted by the Luxembourg sovereigns in Otl : that is, the foundation of cities in strategic territories for the Empire ( for example both Henry VII and Charles IV founded cities in the middle of Guelph Tuscany, Monte Imperiale near Poggibonsi and Montecarlo in the Lucca area ) or the creation of a dynastic fiefdom in the region ( John I of Bohemia had obtained permission from the Pope to carve out a possession in Lombardy, and from 1329 until 1333, he made various military campaigns to consolidate his position in the Parmesan region, in which the young Charles IV also participated ) all this would further strengthen the imperial position in the region, especially if it is added to a policy of cooperation with the main local Ghibelline exponents ( i.e. those who are most likely to obtain the role of Prince Elector representing Italian Kingdom, among these the major the candidates are obviously the already discussed Milan, but Monferrato could also be taken into serious consideration )
If the Popes of this era are too pro-Habsburg, wouldn't there be an incentive for a schism by the French and their Italian allies? It sounds like there'd be plenty of powerful people in Italy who would not approve of this, plus France would not want the Empire being that strong and influential given they were expanding into some of its territories at the time. So they could elect their own antipope who would have the legitimacy of controlling Rome itself via the help of the Colonna, perhaps with the aid of dissident cardinals or other churchmen who fear the church is becoming a puppet of the Emperor and his ambitions. Likely by that point, Philip IV would be dead and his successor might not be shaking down the church as much, or alternatively seek reconciliation over issues like the Templars.
certainly there would be the possibility of seeing some anti-Pope placed on one or the other side ( between France and the Empire, depending on who is more influential in Italy at that moment ) but considering that at that moment the Papacy was surrounded by allies French ( both internally and externally ) it is natural that he would try to ask for the emperor's help to balance the unpleasant situation in which he currently finds himself, but this in any case would not lead to a scenario like Otl ( i.e. the Avignon captivity ) because the Capetians did not they would have the immense power projection capacity they had in Otl, since they would still have to deal with the empire and the Italian cities, so it would be more of a continuation of the previous century ( where Rome used its influence to act as arbiter in Europe, or was playing on the razor's edge by pitting HRE, France, England and Sicily against one another ) instead of the Otl rupture ( where the Papacy post-Clement V pontificate, was seen as a mere puppet of Paris ) furthermore it must be considered that the Habsburgs did not they would certainly have an easy life on the peninsula, given that they would initially have to deal with the age-old problem of the war between Guelphs and Ghibellines ( and their varied political currents ) therefore before being able to talk about the ""absolute"" dominion of the Emperors over Italy ( and especially on Rome ) there must be a lot of water under the bridge, and indeed it is not even said that something like this could actually happen ( this is why in the entire discussion, I proposed that the Habsburgs try a compromise policy in the region, aimed at including key players at the local level in the imperial administration, as representatives of the royal authority )