WI: California's coastline fully explored in the early 1500s?

[Emperor RyRy]

What if, instead of missing out on San Francisco Bay because of fog and rocks, the bay is discovered by some explorer in say 1555? Would Spain colonize the region? Would missionaries build missions? Is it too far from New Spain for colonization yet? What is there that could benefit the crown other than otter furs and the satisfaction that comes from converting 100,000 to the faith? (even if 70% of them die from disease)

 

[Constantinople]

Hmm, hard to say. They DID miss SF several times before they realized its usefulness as a harbor.

But, even fully exploring the coastline really doesn't reveal the tasty goodness inside. The coast is beautiful but the extremely bountiful resources are in the interior.

 

[TFSmith121]

California was also about as far away in terms of travel

Hmm, hard to say. They DID miss SF several times before they realized its usefulness as a harbor.

But, even fully exploring the coastline really doesn't reveal the tasty goodness inside. The coast is beautiful but the extremely bountiful resources are in the interior.

California was also about as far away in terms of travel time from Spain as is possible in the Sixteenth Century, and its not like the Spanish didn't have plenty of other places - with a lot more "obvious" resources to the conquistador mindset - to conquer...

Best,

 

[Emperor RyRy]

California was also about as far away in terms of travel time from Spain as is possible in the Sixteenth Century, and its not like the Spanish didn't have plenty of other places - with a lot more "obvious" resources to the conquistador mindset - to conquer...

Best,

Exactly why I asked the question.

Perhaps with a PoD of Russia unifying and heading into Siberia slightly earlier we could have Californian colonization. The Siberians would have been even more of pushovers as they were still reeling from the Mongols when IRL Russians came in. If Russia can reach the Pacific and go for Alaska much earlier then Spain might freak out and colonize California. Much like IRL but earlier and more dramatic.

 

[TFSmith121]

Well, maybe, but it's not like even the Spanish

Exactly why I asked the question.

Perhaps with a PoD of Russia unifying and heading into Siberia slightly earlier we could have Californian colonization. The Siberians would have been even more of pushovers as they were still reeling from the Mongols when IRL Russians came in. If Russia can reach the Pacific and go for Alaska much earlier then Spain might freak out and colonize California. Much like IRL but earlier and more dramatic.

Well, maybe, but it's not like even the Spanish had conquistadors (or anyone, really) to spare; and with the obvious resources of the West Indies and Mexico and Central America and South America (more or less) at their feet, it's not like yet more square miles of grasslands and hills populated by fishermen and semi-sedentary hunter-gatherers farther away (by sea) from Spain than, well, anywhere are going to have a long line of wannabee Cortez' lining up...

The contrast between the effort and resources the Spanish put into Mexico and Peru, for example, and what went into Florida or the Mississippi Valley in this era, seems pretty apt.

Even in the 1500s and 1600s, there were limits on what made economic sense for the European powers.

It is worth noting that California was "settled" (such as it was) by the Spanish as a movement "forward" from New Spain/Mexico; one suspects that was the only way it could be done, and given the time frame it took for Spanish settlement to move forward from the Valley of Mexico to New Mexico, it may have simply taken a couple of centuries to get the precursors in place.

Otherwise, odds are you end up with a Spanish "Vinland" or "Roanoke" type of situation.

Even in the 1800s, the overland route from Sonora to California was frequently a no go because of the Yuma and Yaqui. Going by sea was preferred, and that makes the divide between Centralists and Federalists in independent Mexico that much more stark; there is a reason Alvarado et al rebelled against Mexico in the 1830s.

Best,

 

[Emperor RyRy]

Well, maybe, but it's not like even the Spanish had conquistadors (or anyone, really) to spare; and with the obvious resources of the West Indies and Mexico and Central America and South America (more or less) at their feet, it's not like yet more square miles of grasslands and hills populated by fishermen and semi-sedentary hunter-gatherers farther away (by sea) from Spain than, well, anywhere are going to have a long line of wannabee Cortez' lining up...

The contrast between the effort and resources the Spanish put into Mexico and Peru, for example, and what went into Florida or the Mississippi Valley in this era, seems pretty apt.

Even in the 1500s and 1600s, there were limits on what made economic sense for the European powers.

It is worth noting that California was "settled" (such as it was) by the Spanish as a movement "forward" from New Spain/Mexico; one suspects that was the only way it could be done, and given the time frame it took for Spanish settlement to move forward from the Valley of Mexico to New Mexico, it may have simply taken a couple of centuries to get the precursors in place.

Otherwise, odds are you end up with a Spanish "Vinland" or "Roanoke" type of situation.

Even in the 1800s, the overland route from Sonora to California was frequently a no go because of the Yuma and Yaqui. Going by sea was preferred, and that makes the divide between Centralists and Federalists in independent Mexico that much more stark; there is a reason Alvarado et al rebelled against Mexico in the 1830s.

Best,

Yeah, that's why I'm wondering. I know that even if it was discovered early it wouldn't be a hotspot for settlement right away. But since it is heavily populated, and has fertile land and some nice things, I think it would eventually become a settler colony instead of extraction with a heavy focus on missionaries converting. Basically what happened IRL but about 100 years earlier.

Also, IRL, even if it's not talked about much, the Spaniards only really considered colonizing California because they knew the Russians were there (in small numbers) already. Fearing Russia might try to take over the coast of Mexico, they began to fortify Alta California through missions.

Also, I think that if Alta was explored earlier that it'd simply be called "California", not Alta and Baja. At least, as a whole.

 

[riggerrob]

Even if Spaniards did fully explore the California coastline, it did not look profitable. Before 1849, California had no gold mines and little arable land.
Most of the coast is arid until you sail north of San Francisco Bay.

The modern agricultural miracle of California's Central Valley is due to massive irrigation projects, river diversions, etc. begun barely a hundred years ago.

 

[TFSmith121]

It is certanly possible; weirder things happened during the

Yeah, that's why I'm wondering. I know that even if it was discovered early it wouldn't be a hotspot for settlement right away. But since it is heavily populated, and has fertile land and some nice things, I think it would eventually become a settler colony instead of extraction with a heavy focus on missionaries converting. Basically what happened IRL but about 100 years earlier.

Also, IRL, even if it's not talked about much, the Spaniards only really considered colonizing California because they knew the Russians were there (in small numbers) already. Fearing Russia might try to take over the coast of Mexico, they began to fortify Alta California through missions.

Also, I think that if Alta was explored earlier that it'd simply be called "California", not Alta and Baja. At least, as a whole.

It is certanly possible; weirder things happened during the age of European imperialism, but the economics seems really hard against it.

You'd need some heavy lobbying by the Church, presumably, if the goal is an early mission system; the alternative is some despised but reasonably well-off minority willing to make the journey to escape persecution - but I don't know who would qualify as the Spanish equivalent of the Puritans in the Sixteenth Century.

It's far too late for the Cathars and Protestantism never really had a foothold; one possibility are the Jewish and Moslem conversos, but although some emigrated to the Americas and elsewhere in the Empire, it does not ever seem to have really been sanctioned as a mass movement...and, for the most part, they had better options in Europe and/or the Mediterranean littoral.

And, even if the Spanish monarchy is willing to support such a movement, there are plenty of places within the "settled" elements of the empire that could use more peninsulares, anyway.

Even ones that were suspected of disloyalty back in the Peninsula.

Best,

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I'm not sure what 'early 1500s' include, but since Cortes didn't take Mexico until the 1520s and it's going to take some time to build a port on the Pacific and start sailing north, I really don't see that it's feasible until the mid 1500s, at best.

 

[dissentcontinues]

I live here. Alot of areas, especially up north, didn't get colonized until the 1700s and 1800s, by Junipero Serra's mission drive or other stuff. Conquistadors went for Native civilizations which were complex and had gold to steal. So...

Since its been proven by DNA analysis Polynesians visited the west coasts, and its been speculated the Chumash of the Santa Barbara area I frequent and have taken the casino buses of, had contact with Polynesians due to their boat making techniques being similar...

Lets say there's more Polynesian contact somehow, and their boats improve enough they can sail south, visit Mesoamerica, get influenced by them, and a more sophisticated civilization develops with the Chumash in the Central Coast with Mesoamerican and Polynesian influences that absorbs neighboring tribes like the Esselen.

Spain would want to loot and plunder that, then convert the survivors as usual.

 

[Emperor RyRy]

I live here. Alot of areas, especially up north, didn't get colonized until the 1700s and 1800s, by Junipero Serra's mission drive or other stuff. Conquistadors went for Native civilizations which were complex and had gold to steal. So...

Since its been proven by DNA analysis Polynesians visited the west coasts, and its been speculated the Chumash of the Santa Barbara area I frequent and have taken the casino buses of, had contact with Polynesians due to their boat making techniques being similar...

Lets say there's more Polynesian contact somehow, and their boats improve enough they can sail south, visit Mesoamerica, get influenced by them, and a more sophisticated civilization develops with the Chumash in the Central Coast with Mesoamerican and Polynesian influences that absorbs neighboring tribes like the Esselen.

Spain would want to loot and plunder that, then convert the survivors as usual.

Maybe have the Megadrought come earlier, force them to settle down and farm, and have the Chumash and their awesome free-market capitalism driven by the new style of canoes become dominant.