WI: Burgundy in the Protestant Age

[Liminia1]

An independent Burgundy, that is sandwiched between France and the Holy Roman Empire, is there no reason for it not to be protestant? The Netherlands at the time were highly urbanized and very keen on proto-protestant movements and the Hugenots would be driven to Burgundy instead of Switzerland thereby increasing its likeliness to protestantism. I also would like to point out Burgundy had quite a few bishoprics and archbishoprics it was tempted to seize. Is there any realistic argument for it not to go protestant? If it does go protestant what branch of protestantism would be most likely to take hold there?

During the religious wars assuming it's still an emperor vs empire would Burgundy take on an active role as a member of the protestant faith?

 

[Mildtryth]

An independent Burgundy, that is sandwiched between France and the Holy Roman Empire, is there no reason for it not to be protestant? The Netherlands at the time were highly urbanized and very keen on proto-protestant movements and the Hugenots would be driven to Burgundy instead of Switzerland thereby increasing its likeliness to protestantism. I also would like to point out Burgundy had quite a few bishoprics and archbishoprics it was tempted to seize. Is there any realistic argument for it not to go protestant? If it does go protestant what branch of protestantism would be most likely to take hold there?

During the religious wars assuming it's still an emperor vs empire would Burgundy take on an active role as a member of the protestant faith?

Even in the Netherlands, Protestantism was still a minority before the war of independence.

Conversion would also put them on a very bad situation politically, since their two strongest neighbours remain Catholic, at least one of them is very interested on their territory and now has a convenient excuse to get it...

 

[Liminia1]

Even in the Netherlands, Protestantism was still a minority before the war of independence.

Conversion would also put them on a very bad situation politically, since their two strongest neighbours remain Catholic, at least one of them is very interested on their territory and now has a convenient excuse to get it...

But in 1618 though?

 

[AsukaEMP]

The answer (as is so often the case) is: it depends.

Historically there was an early opportunity for Lutheranism as it spread to Antwerp almost immediately after the Leipzig Debate, but just as fast as it appeared Charles V squashed the movement and Lutheranism remained a small minority thereafter. Later on it was mostly practiced by German or Scandinavian immigrants. A Valois Burgundy on the other hand could be open to the idea of embracing Lutheranism, depending on the goals and personal convictions of the then-reigning duke.
Calvinism came later and spread rapidly throughout the cities but it still remained a minority until well into the 17th century. I think it's also worth noting that by the time Calvinism gained traction most rulers had already settled in either the Lutheran or Catholic camps, and most of those who adopted Calvinism were former Lutherans.
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Conversion would also put them on a very bad situation politically, since their two strongest neighbours remain Catholic, at least one of them is very interested on their territory and now has a convenient excuse to get it...

Honestly I don't think that's a very strong argument. At the time of the reformation France was mostly preoccupied with enforcing the Valois-Angoulême claims in Italy. And besides that, even when the Dutch did eventually get dragged into the Italian Wars they proved to be capable of maintaining armies that went toe to toe with the French (as did the Dutch Republic later on).

 

[Sian]

On one hand, promoting Protestantism (whether it was Lutheranism or Calvinism) for Burgundy could be seen as a strong way of defining themselves as not!French, but it could easily end up being a way of being very much someone where others would think that religion was the only thing that differencated them from being actual French.

 

[Archduke]

Burgundy's rulers so often aligned themselves with the ideals of the Christian knight and crusader, and Burgundy besides having many burghers also had many knights and nobles who seemed to lean toward Catholicism. I imagine that if Burgundy is switching toward Protestantism that it does so more in line with England's turn than with the militant split that other countries went for. I guess political extremities might push Burgundy toward Protestantism but also still political motivations for Catholicism. Catholicism keeps Burgundy in line with many of the Rhinelanders but also gives them natural opponents in Palatinate. Maybe Burgundy transitions toward a Bavaria-esque figure in the Empire?

 

[Whiteshore]

On one hand, promoting Protestantism (whether it was Lutheranism or Calvinism) for Burgundy could be seen as a strong way of defining themselves as not!French, but it could easily end up being a way of being very much someone where others would think that religion was the only thing that differencated them from being actual French.

Bosnians, Serbs, and Croats: First time?

 

[Liminia1]

Burgundy's rulers so often aligned themselves with the ideals of the Christian knight and crusader, and Burgundy besides having many burghers also had many knights and nobles who seemed to lean toward Catholicism. I imagine that if Burgundy is switching toward Protestantism that it does so more in line with England's turn than with the militant split that other countries went for. I guess political extremities might push Burgundy toward Protestantism but also still political motivations for Catholicism. Catholicism keeps Burgundy in line with many of the Rhinelanders but also gives them natural opponents in Palatinate. Maybe Burgundy transitions toward a Bavaria-esque figure in the Empire?

An independent Burgundy would probably already take a Bavaria figure heck even a Prussia figure. It has always been a bane to the emperor's whether it was Luxembourg or Habsburg, nothing would change if they continue independence.

 

[isabella]

An independent Burgundy, that is sandwiched between France and the Holy Roman Empire, is there no reason for it not to be protestant? The Netherlands at the time were highly urbanized and very keen on proto-protestant movements and the Hugenots would be driven to Burgundy instead of Switzerland thereby increasing its likeliness to protestantism. I also would like to point out Burgundy had quite a few bishoprics and archbishoprics it was tempted to seize. Is there any realistic argument for it not to go protestant? If it does go protestant what branch of protestantism would be most likely to take hold there?

During the religious wars assuming it's still an emperor vs empire would Burgundy take on an active role as a member of the protestant faith?

Pretty ASB question.
With a POD BEFORE the death of Charles the Bold the OTL Protestantism and wars of religion will not exist. Plus Duke of Burgundy would be the next-in-line for the French crown after Francis I’s male line meaning who they have no reason for going Protestants (and the King of France no reason for taking the Duchy of Burgundy or attacking their lands) also if something like that existed (but most of the Reformist movement before Luther and Calvin wanted a renewal inside the Church and Luther and his heresies, if he arrived at such point, would not take hold with a less powerful and not absentee Emperor)
If we are talking about an independent Burgundy ruled by a second son of Charles V (only way in which an independent Burgundy can exist with something like the OTL Reform) then he has no reason for not be Catholic and the Burgundy/Netherlands also would not be either attractive for the Huguenots or keen to leave Catholicism

 

[Nuraghe]

An independent Burgundy, that is sandwiched between France and the Holy Roman Empire, is there no reason for it not to be protestant? The Netherlands at the time were highly urbanized and very keen on proto-protestant movements and the Hugenots would be driven to Burgundy instead of Switzerland thereby increasing its likeliness to protestantism. I also would like to point out Burgundy had quite a few bishoprics and archbishoprics it was tempted to seize. Is there any realistic argument for it not to go protestant? If it does go protestant what branch of protestantism would be most likely to take hold there?

During the religious wars assuming it's still an emperor vs empire would Burgundy take on an active role as a member of the protestant faith?

although it is an interesting question in itself, it is based on truly incorrect foundations ( from my point of view ) because actually with a Pod that is around the 1460/70s, the possibility of seeing a process similar to the reform Protestant Otl ( with even the same confessions ) are extremely low, since such a change will heavily influence not only the dynastic politics of Europe, but also the pontifical one ( with the possibility of seeing very different characters become pontiffs compared to Otl, which which obviously also affects the developments of the Catholic church, perhaps even favoring the very programs of internal reform of the Papacy, which were widely in circulation in those years ) this therefore makes the question already wrong from the start, furthermore Italy was also an extremely urbanized and highly rich region ( to a greater extent than the Netherlands at the time ) with important ecclesiastical territories that they were tempting to many ( given that one of the reasons for discounting among the Italian dynasties was the possibility of obtaining control of the papal state for one's family, or at least carving out a personal fiefdom in its territories ) but this did not bring any of the states of the peninsula to play with the idea of becoming Protestant ( even if there were figures like Savonarola, who pushed for very radical reformist positions within ecclesiastical circles ) now returning to the topic of Burgundy - Rome relations, relations with the papacy were initially truly good under Charles the Bold ( at least with Pius II and Paul II ) given his anti-French position ( which Sixtus IV did not approve of, given that he was an ally of Louis XI ) furthermore one of his main objectives was to obtain the confirmation of a cardinal Burgundian ( since notoriously only the kingdoms had the right to their representative in the curia ( if we exclude the Italian states, which were a separate matter ) which could bring him one step closer to his goal of obtaining a royal title, finally by obtaining a local cardinal, Charles could finally gain independence for his clergy from imperial/French control ( they could no longer get away with knowing that Charles could directly deal with Rome, rather than having to go through their intercession concerning the management of bishoprics within Burgundy )


@Kellan Sullivan