WI: British Empire has Jet Fighters by 1940

[The Dean]

Remember Whittle was not the only one developing jet aircraft in the UK, Geoffrey De-Havilland Snr stated he could have had the Vampire in production years earlier than it was. As another post said Gloster and Carter only got to design the Meteor because all of the successful design teams were fully committed. Giving gas turbines to Camm and Mitchell as well as De-Havilland would have left Carter with his record of failed designs and biplane fighters after the monoplane had arrived where he belonged, on the scrapheap. As another earlier poster said though Carter had gone to the "right" schools and knew the "right" people, much like Leigh-Mallory.

As for bombers Wellington and Lancaster airframes were fitted with centrifugal gas turbines, Nenes, after the war adding 100mph+ to their top speeds.

 

[PMN1]

Giving gas turbines to Camm and Mitchell as well as De-Havilland would have left Carter with his record of failed designs and biplane fighters after the monoplane had arrived where he belonged, on the scrapheap.

Was Camm a jet person, Derek Woods 'Stuck on the Drawing Board' says 'Sydney Camm, the brilliant chief designer of Hawkers had to be taken for an indoctrination session in the Rolls-Royce guest house before he would consider jet propulsion instead of piston engines for his aircraft.'

Don't know what Mitchell would have done but again according to Derek Wood 'Joe Smith, chief designer of Vickers-Supermarine said that he only wanted 3000lb of thrust form a jet engine', seems he was worried about pulling the wings off his then pure-jet conversion of the Spiteful.

 

[The Dean]

Was Camm a jet person, Derek Woods 'Stuck on the Drawing Board' says 'Sydney Camm, the brilliant chief designer of Hawkers had to be taken for an indoctrination session in the Rolls-Royce guest house before he would consider jet propulsion instead of piston engines for his aircraft.'

Don't you mean "Project Cancelled"? Richard Payne wrote "Stuck on the Drawing Board". Camms list of jet designs starts with the Sea Hawk then goes through the Hunter to the Harrier. Not a jet person, I don't think so!

Don't know what Mitchell would have done but again according to Derek Wood 'Joe Smith, chief designer of Vickers-Supermarine said that he only wanted 3000lb of thrust form a jet engine', seems he was worried about pulling the wings off his then pure-jet conversion of the Spiteful.

I don't know where Wood gets his information from, personally I think his sources are unreliable. Smith proposed a jet fighter around the laminar flow wing in late '43. This was originally known as the Jet Spiteful but became the Attacker. It was powered by the 5,000lb thrust Nene so I don't know where Wood's figure of 3,000lb comes from.

To get jets in service for '40 the piston versions of Camm and Mitchell's designs would have to have short lives at the prototype stage. Giving Rolls Royce a high priority in production of gas turbines could lead to them being adopted as there would not be the numbers of piston engines available. A Merlin was more costly in material and man hours to manufacture and maintain than a Nene.

Then potentially there could be Nene powered Attackers, although Mitchell was an innovator and I doubt he would have produced a design using a tail wheel, Hawks and Vampires from De-Havilland. As I mentioned Wellington and Lancaster airframes were fitted with Nenes as civilian aircraft post WW2 so given Nenes in '40 the RAF could have 400mph medium and heavy bombers as well.

 

[PMN1]

Ah yes sorry 'Project Cancelled' Page 18 in my copy.

While Camm went on to use jets, it seems he wasn't too keen at first.

Woods does say that the 5,00l0lb Nene was used in the Attacker, you get the impression that, he like Camm wouldn't be too keen in the late 30's unless shown.

 

[The Dean]

Ah yes sorry 'Project Cancelled' Page 18 in my copy.

While Camm went on to use jets, it seems he wasn't too keen at first.

Woods does say that the 5,00l0lb Nene was used in the Attacker, you get the impression that, he like Camm wouldn't be too keen in the late 30's unless shown.

Well Carlito's POD was '35. Given air ministry backing gas turbines, made first priority, are available in volume instead of piston engines. Remember all of the resorces that were spent by RR, Napier's and Bristol on their various sleeve valve designs that didn't produce results until after '43/4 in OTL. Put all of that effort into gas turbines from '35 onwards and Metrovick's axial flow could have been online with RR's Avon and Halford at De-Havilland's Gyron. These were all produced in the late '40s in OTL. Designers wouldn't have any other option but to use them if that was what was available.

 

[Just Leo]

I think Geoffrey DeHavilland could make a nice jet airplane, maybe two. W.E.W. Teddy Petter would be a good choice for second source. I wish James Martin would have co-operated with existing manufacurers in designing something that would have entered production. Someone would have to remind him to use a vertical fin.

Sir Sydney was a reluctant jet age designer and resisted swept wing technology as being German. Joe Smith sadly sat at the helm of a declining design office. The Spiteful wing was a disappointment.

 

[The Dean]

I think Geoffrey DeHavilland could make a nice jet airplane, maybe two. W.E.W. Teddy Petter would be a good choice for second source. I wish James Martin would have co-operated with existing manufacurers in designing something that would have entered production. Someone would have to remind him to use a vertical fin.

Sir Sydney was a reluctant jet age designer and resisted swept wing technology as being German. Joe Smith sadly sat at the helm of a declining design office. The Spiteful wing was a disappointment.

All good points but in '35 Supermarines were not declining and Mitchell was still there for a few more years. Smith would have taken over a going concern.

 

[Just Leo]

If Mitchell had lived longer, he would be on the list. As it is, however, his aerodynamist, Beverley Shenstone, would be on the team. Strangely, after working at Junkers on the W.30, he designed the Spitfire wing.

 

[Alratan]

By the way I am working on the next piece of my jet TL, although progress has been galcial. I stopped the last instalment in May 1942, and I;m now up to September!

Working out the impacts is quite challenging.

 

[Cook]

If Mitchell had lived longer, he would be on the list. As it is, however, his aerodynamist, Beverley Shenstone, would be on the team. Strangely, after working at Junkers on the W.30, he designed the Spitfire wing.

Quite a jump that; going from possibly one of the ugliest aircraft to have got off the ground to the most beautiful.