Some people claimed that if the British did not restrict the flow of jewish immigrants throughout the 30s and throughout WWII, a lot of jews could have been saved from the Holocaust. How many would have escaped? Is it plausible that the Jewish population of Eretz Israel/Palestine in 1947 could be at least twice the population in the OTL? Would Israel in 1948 include also include the West Bank?
WI: British didn't restrict Jewish entry to Eretz Israel
- Thread starter S. Amir
- Start date
Max Sinister
Banned
Difficult to tell how many could've survived... Those who fled to South France probably would, since they could've gone to Israel. But those in Poland, Romania and the Soviet Union, or in Hungary haven't got many chances to get there... :-C
Between 500,000 and one million survivors more, I'd say.
Between 500,000 and one million survivors more, I'd say.
Max Sinister
Banned
The Allies might decide to give them parts of Germany instead (East Prussia? Lower Silesia?). Since the scenario would mean that esp. more German and Austrian Jews survived (many of them went to Southern France and were later captured and killed), they could push for it. Probably not, though, because they might fear German (or Communist) aggression.
Actually, if the British had offered unlimited immigration of Jews to Israel, the Shoah might have been prevented or lessened. Hitlers final solution might have been the forceful relocation of Jews out of Europe and into Israel. Multitudes would have died along the way, but the extermination camps might never have come into existence. In the 30's the Nazis were still talking about relocating jews to far eastern europe after all.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The question here is did europan jews in the interwar years want to go to Palestine. From what little I have read, most wanted to go to the US, not to Palestine. Plus what sort of jews wanted to go there, if its only older religous types, they are not going to have that much effect.
Prior to the out brake of war Hitler made it very dificult for jews to leave Germany, Taxes etc, and most jews outside Germany had little or no reason to go ether.
Prior to the out brake of war Hitler made it very dificult for jews to leave Germany, Taxes etc, and most jews outside Germany had little or no reason to go ether.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Iamjin, while I don't dispute that Britain did stop much immigration, the question is was Palestine the prefered option. Did more jews want to go there, or the US.
And again what sort, was it the young dynnamic, or the old and religous.The type of immigrant will make a big differance to where this change goes.
And again what sort, was it the young dynnamic, or the old and religous.The type of immigrant will make a big differance to where this change goes.
I am not sure a wider opening of Palestine would have saved that many more Jews.
The Jewish population of the Western European countries had literally swollen during the interwar period, taking refugees from Central and Eastern Europe. Most of them were simply aspiring to integrate themselves into those societies when the war caught up with them. It is true that some quota's had been put on Jewish immigration after the influx from Germany grew so much following the Kristallennacht, but they still numbered in the tens of thousands. It was also the moment when the Nazi started ransoming the candidates for departure, making it even more difficult for them to depart at all, whatever the destination.
The US remained fairly open to Jewish immigration throughout the period, and did indeed attract lots of refugees. Any Jew who wanted to leave a dangerous country would stand a reasonable chance of getting into the US. Many preferred to stay in Western Europe, as they wanted to stay close to their country of origin or had family connections there.
I would be of the opinion that Jews who wanted to leave but did not do so, didn't do it for lack of an opportunity to go to Palestine (I'm talking before the war, here - the attitude changed radically afterwards), and that those who settled in to-be-occupied territories did not make this choice either for that reason. It may be that a number of committed Zionists were indeed prevented from joining Palestine and were hence caught by the horror of the Holocaust, but you'd probably be talking in the tens of thousands, maybe a couple of hundred thousands at the most... And I'm not even talking about simply the capacity of this small land to absorb such an inflow of allochtone population over such a short time span.
As an answer to the previous question, Zionists were mostly the secular entrepreneurial type. Many religious Jews were anti-Zionists at the time.
The Jewish population of the Western European countries had literally swollen during the interwar period, taking refugees from Central and Eastern Europe. Most of them were simply aspiring to integrate themselves into those societies when the war caught up with them. It is true that some quota's had been put on Jewish immigration after the influx from Germany grew so much following the Kristallennacht, but they still numbered in the tens of thousands. It was also the moment when the Nazi started ransoming the candidates for departure, making it even more difficult for them to depart at all, whatever the destination.
The US remained fairly open to Jewish immigration throughout the period, and did indeed attract lots of refugees. Any Jew who wanted to leave a dangerous country would stand a reasonable chance of getting into the US. Many preferred to stay in Western Europe, as they wanted to stay close to their country of origin or had family connections there.
I would be of the opinion that Jews who wanted to leave but did not do so, didn't do it for lack of an opportunity to go to Palestine (I'm talking before the war, here - the attitude changed radically afterwards), and that those who settled in to-be-occupied territories did not make this choice either for that reason. It may be that a number of committed Zionists were indeed prevented from joining Palestine and were hence caught by the horror of the Holocaust, but you'd probably be talking in the tens of thousands, maybe a couple of hundred thousands at the most... And I'm not even talking about simply the capacity of this small land to absorb such an inflow of allochtone population over such a short time span.
As an answer to the previous question, Zionists were mostly the secular entrepreneurial type. Many religious Jews were anti-Zionists at the time.
Actually the US wasn't open to Jews or anyone else as under Woodrow Wilson some massive restrictions were imposed on immigration. With an emphasis on people from Eastern Europe and the Balkans being limited and non-whites virtually banned(nothing virtual about Japanese either).
If we presume no British limitations at any point, perhaps a few tens of thousands prior to 1944 as some manage to leave Germany and Austria or become concerned in one of the Axis minors or Italy. Bear in mind that the Germans can get massive brownie points in the Arab world by restricting or preventing this immigration.
After early 1944 the Arab position is no longer relevant and the number saved becomes much larger, in Hungary alone at least 800K could have been saved given a place to go. Also in this period the neutrals finally made a modest effort to save some Jews, and if they were reasonably certain that they would not be responsible for them once the war ended...
Number saved: 1 million or more.
Number actually moving to and staying in Israel: Unknown.
If we presume no British limitations at any point, perhaps a few tens of thousands prior to 1944 as some manage to leave Germany and Austria or become concerned in one of the Axis minors or Italy. Bear in mind that the Germans can get massive brownie points in the Arab world by restricting or preventing this immigration.
After early 1944 the Arab position is no longer relevant and the number saved becomes much larger, in Hungary alone at least 800K could have been saved given a place to go. Also in this period the neutrals finally made a modest effort to save some Jews, and if they were reasonably certain that they would not be responsible for them once the war ended...
Number saved: 1 million or more.
Number actually moving to and staying in Israel: Unknown.
I hadn't thought about the case Hungarian Jews. However, that would assume the Germans would have let them go unharmed through countries they occupied. That's a big hypothesis.
For the US, I thought Roosevelt had ultimaetely relaxed the restrictions under the influence of his dear friend Brandeis.
For the US, I thought Roosevelt had ultimaetely relaxed the restrictions under the influence of his dear friend Brandeis.
benedict XVII said:
Jewish emigration to the US was only relaxed after the conclusion of the war. During and before the war, it was nearly impossible for a jew to get a visa out of Europe. If Jews could have freely taveled to Israel you would have seen 10's of thousands fleeing from Germany, Austria, and Chekoslovakia after Kristalnacht. If there had been a place outside of Europe where Hitler could have deported all the jews, he may have done so, though this is of course pure speculation.
Wasn't Brandeis a Zionist? IMHO he would probably want to encourage investment in Israel prefering, so it would become more attractive to Jews. At least thats what he argued for but Weizmann preferred Jews buying land and become farmers. In fact during the pre-independance period, a job in the service sector is looked down upon. As the jewish population, I doubt even if a million plus manages to leave Europe in the 30s and WWII, don't think all of them would stay after independance. I've read somewhere that there are 1 million Israeli jews with Green card living in the US. Obviously the Israel in this ATL would need to have a strong, prosperous economy if they want jews to stay.