What if the Nazis manage to pull a victory out of their ass in the Battle of the Bulge, capturing Amsterdam in the process. How much longer would the Allied invasion of Germany stall, how much more of Germany would the Soviets take, what would the post-war world look like.
WI: Battle of the Bulge is a Nazi victory?
- Thread starter JosefStalin
- Start date
You'll end up with a lot of german soldiers and tanks without gasoline trapped nicely on the otehr side of a tricky mountain range while the wheather clears up and the RAF/USAF plot their bombing.
Well, that's one way to turn your offensive into a success. Redefine the objectives halfway through so that a city you held at the start is now the target.
As for the actual objective, it's pretty undoable. The Bulge offensive was a failure pretty much from the word go, even by the end of the first day, it was massively behind schedule and had achieved very little. Even if the Germans somehow get an 'auto-win' button from startline to Antwerp, they're left holding a corridor which the Allies can and will counterattack. Hell, it might be even more of a disaster than OTL if more troops are caught.
As for the actual objective, it's pretty undoable. The Bulge offensive was a failure pretty much from the word go, even by the end of the first day, it was massively behind schedule and had achieved very little. Even if the Germans somehow get an 'auto-win' button from startline to Antwerp, they're left holding a corridor which the Allies can and will counterattack. Hell, it might be even more of a disaster than OTL if more troops are caught.
It would have taken the intervention of Alien Space Bats to make this work - Rundstedt himself said that they should fall down on their knees and thank god if they got as far as the Meuse, let alone Antwerp. Ike was not Gamelin, the Luftwaffe was a broken reed and above all Monty moved an entire army corps to the line of the Meuse to protect Liege and Namur.
I know people will yell ASB and how, but let's work with the POD. Germans somehow win. They capture all the fuel along the way, some sort of pestulance hits the allied armies at just the wrong time, and the Germans find themselves in Amersterdam. The end result is that they may delay the west for 3 months tops. Russians meet them at the Rhine likely. The Germans won't have the fuel to withdraw, so they get captured.
Faulty roadsigns which the Germans also suffer from are not going to delay an advance for 3 months.
Antwerp rather, sorry, just going with the OP I knew what he meant.
von kressenstein
Banned
uhm.. even if it was declared a win..
what about those guys to the east...
what it means is simple.. the russian get time to grab more... The western allies look like blundering fools
The Germans by this time are vastly out numbered and out gunned and out supplied...
what about those guys to the east...
what it means is simple.. the russian get time to grab more... The western allies look like blundering fools
The Germans by this time are vastly out numbered and out gunned and out supplied...
It's not just the fuel, it's the entire idea. The weather's still going to clear, the Allied air forces are still going to descend on the Germans, with the latter unable to do a damn thing about it, the Meuse is held by XXX Corps and Patton's coming up from the South, slathering at the thought of ripping up another German army. Watch On The Rhine was a classic example of Hitler thinking that the visions in his brain matched reality. It is very, very unlikely.
Maybe a bit harsch, that. It was a desperate gamble meeting material superiority, wheather clearing up too early ( they did wait for overcast skys to alunch it to avoid teh allied air suepriority), and the constant allied efforts to remove axis fuel supplies.
"Winning" is somewhat easy, IMHO: Ike take Pattons "advice" and let them advance. Maybe not antwerp, but instead toward Paris... at the end, they create a massive, Falaise 2.0 pocket, with the majority of the best german units in it.
Total german disaster, war probably ends somewhat sooner.
Total german disaster, war probably ends somewhat sooner.
Anaxagoras
Banned
As others have been saying, if the Germans miraculously manage to take Antwerp, then the Allied forces north of the corridor hunker down to serve as an anvil, and then the Allied forces south and west of the corridor smash into the Germans as a hammer. The remaining armored forces of the Third Reich are obliterated, allowing a much faster and easier occupation of Germany during the first few months of 1945.
Now, this may mean that the Soviets will move farther west in 1945 than they did IOTL.
Now, this may mean that the Soviets will move farther west in 1945 than they did IOTL.
And even IF the 21st AG is surrounded the RAF can do what the Luftwaffe couldnt in Stalingrad, send relief. Bomber Harris would be much upset when IKE goes to him and say that every bomber is needed for airdrops.
Fighter-bombers could load with small arms instead of bombs.
And when the sky clears Monty Patton strikes from either side and suddenly Germany loses the entire western defence force.
But the allies still have to overcome supply shortages since Antwerp will be destroyed this time.
Fighter-bombers could load with small arms instead of bombs.
And when the sky clears Monty Patton strikes from either side and suddenly Germany loses the entire western defence force.
But the allies still have to overcome supply shortages since Antwerp will be destroyed this time.
Geon
Donor
Battle of the Bulge
According to some of the historians I have heard on documentaries and otherwise the Battle of the Bulge could either be one of two possibilities.
Thoughts?
Geon
According to some of the historians I have heard on documentaries and otherwise the Battle of the Bulge could either be one of two possibilities.
- The greatest blunder Hitler ever made next to invading the Soviet Union. Hitler squandered the precious reserves he had left of manpower, tanks, fuel, etc. on an offensive that actually speeded up the end of the war.
- A gamble that almost worked. The panzers came very close to seizing precious fuel depots that would have given them the means to reach Antwerp before the weather cleared. If Bastogne, a vital road junction had fallen rather then held out they might have reached Antwerp. This would have temporarily thrown the Allies on the defensive, but would have allowed Hitler time to shore up the Eastern Front and develop his "wonder weapons."
Thoughts?
Geon
usertron2020
Donor
This requires handwaving in even more bad weather in what was already one of the worst periods of weather in Western Europe in history. Like the Germans weren't lucky enough on that score as it was. And as has been mentioned greater command paralysis than was seen in 1940. What, no radios?
Basically, this requires the Allies to do absolutely NOTHING (as Hitler planned) until the Germans reached all their objectives, while defeating each Allied formation in detail. Um, apparently, those (if any
) who actually resist.
BTW, on a sheerest tactical level right at the Meuse River bridges the Allies were spotted hull down in defense the only Pershing tanks they had in Europe. So HAD the Germans reached the bridges on the Meuse capable of handling their heavy tanks their vaunted Tigers would have encountered a very nasty surprise.
Basically, this requires the Allies to do absolutely NOTHING (as Hitler planned) until the Germans reached all their objectives, while defeating each Allied formation in detail. Um, apparently, those (if any
) who actually resist.BTW, on a sheerest tactical level right at the Meuse River bridges the Allies were spotted hull down in defense the only Pershing tanks they had in Europe. So HAD the Germans reached the bridges on the Meuse capable of handling their heavy tanks their vaunted Tigers would have encountered a very nasty surprise.
Last edited:
usertron2020
Donor
If the strategic objectives of the fuel depots and Bastogne are taken, then that moves the battle east, but it doesn't take away the forces they actually fought OTL, and makes worse the problem of defending very long flanks, as well as trying to force a well-defended Meuse River with a limited number of tank-friendly bridges that can be employed, even if captured (?)
Got any names so I can add them to my "Stay the hell away from this guy's work" list?