WI: Axis planes had .50

[elkarlo]

It seems as though both Japanese an German Planes had the same armament, pair or so of .30 and 20mm. Now the 20mm, posses gret stopping power, but cannons have a few drawbacks:
1. Their trajectory has a good deal of drop off making em not so great at any real distance.
2. Due to weight/space issues the fighters could only hold so many shells. Making it so that the plane had a limited supply of ammo.
3. Firing rate is rather slow, and at high speeds that is a huge factor.

While the .30 is a good weapon, it is not good against semi-armored vehicles. My Dad, a former GB told me about disabling cars/trucks. A .30 won't stop a car, at least not quickly, as old engine blocks could withstand the impact. It's the hitting of hoses, fans and such that stops the engine. While a .50 will break the block, and stop the engine.

So my Q is, if the Axis had .50 instead of .30, I wonder how air to air combat would have gone? Esp for the Japanese, their planes were papermache, and the .30 did nothing to the Allied aircraft, perhaps this would have made the war a few moths longer? I dunno, just wondering.

 

[Markus]

Depends on what type of 20mm you use. See here.
And the Axis did have guns in the .50 range. The Italians had the 12.7*81mm, Germany the 15*96mm. Such guns were ok for shooting down single engine fighters and twin engine bombers, which were the main target of the allied fighters. German fighters had to kill bombers with four engines and a lot of defensive firepower, that required at least 4*20mm guns.

The Japanese could have benefitted from a pair of cal.50 gun but it would not have had strategic effects.

 

[elkarlo]

Depends on what type of 20mm you use. See here.
And the Axis did have guns in the .50 range. The Italians had the 12.7*81mm, Germany the 15*96mm. Such guns were ok for shooting down single engine fighters and twin engine bombers, which were the main target of the allied fighters. German fighters had to kill bombers with four engines and a lot of defensive firepower, that required at least 4*20mm guns.

The Japanese could have benefitted from a pair of cal.50 gun but it would not have had strategic effects.

Sorry not to clarify. I mean that the Germans would have .50cals inplace of .30, which would help against fighters, and might do some damage against bombers, but of course that;d be the 20mm role.

I think it'd be interesting to see what tactical changes that would've made.

Did the Germans really use the 15.98 machine gun that much in their aircraft? I thought it was pretty rare?

 

[Markus]

Did the Germans really use the 15.98 machine gun that much in their aircraft? I thought it was pretty rare?

Wiki says no because it was considered too weak.

 

[elkarlo]

Wiki says no because it was considered too weak.

That's what I figured.

 

[Just Leo]

The Germans finally listened to you in the Me-109G-6 and subsequent models. The replacement MG131 of 13 mm just over half inch guns resulted in the unsightly bulges just in front of the cockpit.

 

[elkarlo]

The Germans finally listened to you in the Me-109G-6 and subsequent models. The replacement MG131 of 13 mm just over half inch guns resulted in the unsightly bulges just in front of the cockpit.

But that was a huge afterthought, if they had done it from the start, they wouldn't have had to have that odd design. Though to be fair in 1940, most everyone was using .30 or somewhat close to that.

How did the Me-109G-6 fair?

 

[Just Leo]

While the synchronized cowl guns on the Me-109 were eventually up-graded, and while the MG FF 20 mm cannon did have slow rate of fire, low muzzle velocity, and short range, the significant up-grade in armament was the change to MG151/20, fitted as motor-cannon or in the wings. Late Me-109's were even equipped with 30mm Mk 108 cannons for bomber attack, because although they were low velocity, slow rate of fire, they made a big hole in B-17's. Hans Marseille, the Star of Africa, shot down 158 allied aircraft including large daily scores, even though the last Me-109 he flew was a Me-109G2Trop. He was never shot down himself, but his motor quit and he died bailing out.

The FW-190 started with 2 mg's, 2 MG FF (20mm) cannons and 2 MG-151/20 cannons. The cowl machine guns were deleted from fighter-bomber models. They always used cannon.

The Japanese Ki-43 Hayabusa, "Oscar" started the war with just two .30's, and was eventually up-graded to one and one, .30 and .50, and finally two .50 machine guns. Never more. Strangely, Wiki says it shot down more allied planes than any other Japanese aircraft. The second highest American ace, Tommy MacGuire, lost his life in combat with a Ki-43, not from gunfire, but from trying to turn with it at low altitude. MacGuire had 38 victories when he died. The highest Hayabusa ace had 39.

Althought the RAF eventually developed the 20mm cannon to perfection, the story of the US attempts to develop the weapon were somewhat ludicrous. They copied it wrong and it didn't work.

 

[zoomar]

Multiple (no fewer than six) .50 cal MGs are usually an excellent weapon in fighter vs fighter combat, and the eight carried by the P-47 packed a considerable punch. But it is important to consider the opponent and tactical/strategic situation. In the Pacific Theatre, Allied planes with a quartet of .50's had an adequate punch to down most early and mid-war Japanese fighters and bombers. The same could not be said of the ETO, where both allied and axis planes were equipped with adequate self-sealing fuel tanks and pilot/engine armor. Germany needed batteries of multiple cannon (20 and 30mm) to effectively down US and RAF heavy bombers - which was the primary mission of almost all Nazi single engined fighters engaged on the western front. Britain switched to four 20mm cannon as soon as possible - and usually added two 20mms to older Spits amd Hurris. Only the USAAF could make do with .50 cal MGs only, and that is only because they were for the most part fighting other fighters. If, in some alternative time line, the USAAF was tasked with defending US cities (or advanced bases/facilities) from massed attacks by well-protected German or Japanese heavy bombers, you'd see a lot of single engined fighters regunned with 20, 30, and 37mm cannon.

 

[Markus]

The Japanese Ki-43 Hayabusa, "Oscar" started the war with just two .30's, and was eventually up-graded to one and one, .30 and .50, and finally two .50 machine guns. Never more. Strangely, Wiki says it shot down more allied planes than any other Japanese aircraft.

The Japanese cal.50 was .50 Vickers, that´s not as powerful as a .50BMG but still more than three times the cinetic energy and four times the weight of a rifle caliber bullet.

 

[Just Leo]

The Japanese cal.50 was .50 Vickers, that´s not as powerful as a .50BMG but still more than three times the cinetic energy and four times the weight of a rifle caliber bullet.

The gun was based on the Browning, the bullet was based on Vickers/Breda.

 

[TofuTanker]

How did the Me-109G-6 fair?

By that time the Me 109 had been developed far enough that the basic airframe was too small and light for the engine and armament requirements of the time. Germany kept building it because even though it was less effective than the Fw 190, it was a cheap way of getting guns in the air.

 

[Mad Missouri]

Althought the RAF eventually developed the 20mm cannon to perfection, the story of the US attempts to develop the weapon were somewhat ludicrous. They copied it wrong and it didn't work.

I say it was criminal really. From what I've read the British pointed out the problems with the US 20mm cannons more than once and still they did nothing about it until after the war. I've always wondered if the .50 cal manufactures had something to do with that.

 

[DD951]

I say it was criminal really. From what I've read the British pointed out the problems with the US 20mm cannons more than once and still they did nothing about it until after the war. I've always wondered if the .50 cal manufactures had something to do with that.

I think it had something to do with the institutionalized 'Not Invented Here' syndrome that pervaded US ordnance development and production throughout the war- the attitude that only those members of the appropriate development group did or could possibly know anything worthwhile about the issue and any input from anyone else at all was dismissed as the ignorant prattle of amateurs who couldn't possibly know what they were talking about, especially if there was any chance of disrupting production in the slightest or contradicted preconceived notions. The most prominent examples of this were the saga of the USN's torpedoes, and the upgunning of the Sherman. The failure to correct the flaws with the 20mm cannon according to the Tony Williams article was more with the desire to not mess with production and believing that the only way to find problems was to do it themselves. I think a similar failure had something to do with the complete failure of the US Army's efforts to reverse-engineer or even copy the MG42.

 

[elkarlo]

While the synchronized cowl guns on the Me-109 were eventually up-graded, and while the MG FF 20 mm cannon did have slow rate of fire, low muzzle velocity, and short range, the significant up-grade in armament was the change to MG151/20, fitted as motor-cannon or in the wings. Late Me-109's were even equipped with 30mm Mk 108 cannons for bomber attack, because although they were low velocity, slow rate of fire, they made a big hole in B-17's. Hans Marseille, the Star of Africa, shot down 158 allied aircraft including large daily scores, even though the last Me-109 he flew was a Me-109G2Trop. He was never shot down himself, but his motor quit and he died bailing out.

The FW-190 started with 2 mg's, 2 MG FF (20mm) cannons and 2 MG-151/20 cannons. The cowl machine guns were deleted from fighter-bomber models. They always used cannon.

The Japanese Ki-43 Hayabusa, "Oscar" started the war with just two .30's, and was eventually up-graded to one and one, .30 and .50, and finally two .50 machine guns. Never more. Strangely, Wiki says it shot down more allied planes than any other Japanese aircraft. The second highest American ace, Tommy MacGuire, lost his life in combat with a Ki-43, not from gunfire, but from trying to turn with it at low altitude. MacGuire had 38 victories when he died. The highest Hayabusa ace had 39.

Althought the RAF eventually developed the 20mm cannon to perfection, the story of the US attempts to develop the weapon were somewhat ludicrous. They copied it wrong and it didn't work.

Great answer.
I still don't see what they thought the .30 was good for after '40. It just seems like it was not worth all that much.

The 20 and the 30mm are really needed to tke out large bombers. I think I read something about .30 doing almost nothing to B-17s, basically they could absorb hundreds of rounds and just shrug em off.

Hans Marseille, and his story is kinda sad. He could beat entire RAF patrols himself, and he dies from a bad engine.

I just don't understand the US weapon development, the 20mm was there, the UK had a good one, and the US just looked at it funny.

 

[Paul MacQ]

All Basics you need to know about Fighter Gun Armament in
WW2

http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-in.html

And Direct to Tony's site for more

20MM medium/High Velocity seems to have been the best Balance Depending on Theater and Targets,

 

[von Adler]

Sweden and Romania used 13,2mm FN-Browning - A US .50 M2 produced by FN in Belgium (and on license in Huskvarna in Sweden) for the Hotchkiss 13,2x99. It was a light automatic cannon, firing HE, incidentiary, AP etc). Sweden had 4 of them on the J 22B.