WI: Anne Hyde dies in 1665

[Valena]

Inspired by discussion with @VVD0D95 in PMs regarding ATL second match of James of York.
So pretty much, WI something goes wrong during childbirth of Anne, and Anne Hyde pulls Anna Petrovna of Russia/Jane Seymor as is getting infection after childbirth, and dies from it.
James is left a widower with 3 surviving kids - 2 girls and a boy.

IMO in TTL he may well marry to a daughter of Edward of Palatinate circa 1666-1667 - they are highest ranked French proxies available, and have some Stuart blood themselves, so a Catholic Duchess of York of this background is palatable.
OTL Princess of Salm is an interesting candidate for this (in OTL died in 1679, but left a surviving son; if this is the case TTL as well, would James remarry for third time with surviving son(s))?

 

[VVD0D95]

I think if he does have a surviving son or sobs chances are he might just remarry timprovide a mother for them?

Though would he still make the catholic demand in the 1660s when he’s not an out catholic?

 

[Valena]

I think if he does have a surviving son or sobs chances are he might just remarry timprovide a mother for them?

Though would he still make the catholic demand in the 1660s when he’s not an out catholic?

So far in 1665 he only has a single son, James of Cambridge, who in OTL died of plague in 1667.
Due to naval engagements of OTL James is unlikely to remarry until 1666, spending most of 1665 at sea. A French proxy may be reasonable as France sought to leave the war - and Louise Marie of Palatinate is the highest ranked one they have available (her English blood is a boon).
A Danish second wife may also be considered - likely Frederica Amalia of Denmark (in which case Wilhelmine Ernestine takes her place in Holstein match, and Palatinate succession is also altered).

 

[VVD0D95]

So far in 1665 he only has a single son, James of Cambridge, who in OTL died of plague in 1667.
Due to naval engagements of OTL James is unlikely to remarry until 1666, spending most of 1665 at sea. A French proxy may be reasonable as France sought to leave the war - and Louise Marie of Palatinate is the highest ranked one they have available (her English blood is a boon).
A Danish second wife may also be considered - likely Frederica Amalia of Denmark (in which case Wilhelmine Ernestine takes her place in Holstein match, and Palatinate succession is also altered).

Hmm this is true, given Charles and James leanings at the time Louise Marie is the most likely I think

 

[Valena]

The marriage can be an excuse for France to sign a separate peace treaty - as they are at war with Britain in 1665-1666 OTL. So they would either offer a proxy princesse etranger (of whom Louise Marie of Palatinate is of the best birth) or sponsor a Danish match (with Frederica Amalia of Denmark; causing potentially lots of butterflies across Europe).

 

[Valena]

If Louise Marie becomes Duchess of York, then her sister, Benedicte Henriette (if not used in Polish succession games -aka if Duc de Longueville dies as OTL) can be considered for second Duchesse d'Orleans instead of her first cousin Lizelotte, so that the marriage connection/influence route still exists between Versallies and Whitehall.

 

[Valena]

If Louise Marie becomes Duchess of York, then her sister, Benedicte Henriette (if not used in Polish succession games -aka if Duc de Longueville dies as OTL) can be considered for second Duchesse d'Orleans instead of her first cousin Lizelotte, so that the marriage connection/influence route still exists between Versallies and Whitehall.

Bumping this because I was wondering about this particular thing yet again.

The Orleans match would maybe be considered redundant, given than Anne of Palatinate is already Duchesse d'Enghien/Princess Conde, so a presence in Versallies is still here. But Benedicte Henriette would definitely get better match than OTL. And I'm not talking about exotic suits such as to Tsarevich of Russia as was considered by her Polish aunt - if her sister is a Duchess of York and pumps out a healthy Duke of Kendal/Cambridge (depending on whether the 1st Duke of Cambridge lives) soon enough, then until something extraordinary happens, Benedicte Henriette is an aunt to future King of Britain.

So, who would be on top of bachelor list come 1670 and Benedicte suddenly becoming too important for Duchesse de Longueville but not important enough for Duchesse d'Orleans (I think her mother would try to avoid awkward situation of younger sister outranking the elder one at court)?

To get this behind the bare bones, let's say that the wedding negotiations become ongoing in mid-1666, tied to separate peace with France (so naval engagements of this year likely would go differently as France would be abandoning their Dutch allies), and marriage in 1667.
With the birth of Lady Henriette of York in 1668 and Charles, Duke of Kendal, in 1669 (further issue is subject to modeling, but going from OTL models, it's possible to get a Lady Elisabeth of York circa 1672 and Edward, Duke of Cambridge, circa 1676).

The one thing sure, is that even if James of Cambridge does not survive TTL, there is 16+ years for Charles of Kendal being raised as High Church Anglican, and even if Louise Marie dies in 1679 on schedule, James is unlikely to remarry for the third time. OTOH, a bridal crisis may be created by OTL Duchess of Savoy being considered for Charles of Kendal - though it would create some kind of inbreeding issue among Stuarts - Charles of Kendal would be a son of first cousins once removed, marrying his own first cousin. Not Habsburg-level inbred, but a competition.

 

[VVD0D95]

Bumping this because I was wondering about this particular thing yet again.

The Orleans match would maybe be considered redundant, given than Anne of Palatinate is already Duchesse d'Enghien/Princess Conde, so a presence in Versallies is still here. But Benedicte Henriette would definitely get better match than OTL. And I'm not talking about exotic suits such as to Tsarevich of Russia as was considered by her Polish aunt - if her sister is a Duchess of York and pumps out a healthy Duke of Kendal/Cambridge (depending on whether the 1st Duke of Cambridge lives) soon enough, then until something extraordinary happens, Benedicte Henriette is an aunt to future King of Britain.

So, who would be on top of bachelor list come 1670 and Benedicte suddenly becoming too important for Duchesse de Longueville but not important enough for Duchesse d'Orleans (I think her mother would try to avoid awkward situation of younger sister outranking the elder one at court)?

To get this behind the bare bones, let's say that the wedding negotiations become ongoing in mid-1666, tied to separate peace with France (so naval engagements of this year likely would go differently as France would be abandoning their Dutch allies), and marriage in 1667.
With the birth of Lady Henriette of York in 1668 and Charles, Duke of Kendal, in 1669 (further issue is subject to modeling, but going from OTL models, it's possible to get a Lady Elisabeth of York circa 1672 and Edward, Duke of Cambridge, circa 1676).

The one thing sure, is that even if James of Cambridge does not survive TTL, there is 16+ years for Charles of Kendal being raised as High Church Anglican, and even if Louise Marie dies in 1679 on schedule, James is unlikely to remarry for the third time. OTOH, a bridal crisis may be created by OTL Duchess of Savoy being considered for Charles of Kendal - though it would create some kind of inbreeding issue among Stuarts - Charles of Kendal would be a son of first cousins once removed, marrying his own first cousin. Not Habsburg-level inbred, but a competition.

Could a Habsburg be considered or is that too far off?

 

[Valena]

So, the Stuarts of TTL would look like this:
James of York (James II) + Anne Hyde (d.1665):

• Lady Mary of York (b.1662)
• James, Duke of Cambridge (b.1663) - should he survive TTL and become his father's/uncle's heir?
• Lady Anne of York (b.1665, her mom TTL dies in

+ Louise Marie of Palatinate

• Lady Henriette of York (1668-1673)
• Charles, Duke of Kendal (b.1669)
• Lady Elisabeth of York (b.1672)
• Edward, Duke of Cambridge (if James of Cambridge still dies)/Duke of Gloucester (if Jamie lives) (b.1676)

That's some well-rounded succession line by 1680, when James becomes a widower again (by this point his eldest surviving boy may well be betrothed).

Could a Habsburg be considered or is that too far off?

For Benedicte Henriette you mean? There is no direct ones available, Leopold I and Carlos II of Spain are the only males they have left by 1669.

 

[Valena]

From what's clear from the dynastic table above, Anne of York would NOT be getting her OTL match - if anything, her heading to Portugal as second wife of Pedro II is possible. On the other hand, her younger half-sister Elisabeth of York is good for British-Danish relations and can be betrothed to Crown Prince of Denmark without mess and fuss.
Mary's match to William of Orange also suddenly starts looking less lucrative if Mary is much lower in succession line by 1677 compared to OTL.

 

[VVD0D95]

From what's clear from the dynastic table above, Anne of York would NOT be getting her OTL match - if anything, her heading to Portugal as second wife of Pedro II is possible. On the other hand, her younger half-sister Elisabeth of York is good for British-Danish relations and can be betrothed to Crown Prince of Denmark without mess and fuss.
Mary's match to William of Orange also suddenly starts looking less lucrative if Mary is much lower in succession line by 1677 compared to OTL.

Agreed rhere, could Mary be considered for the dauphin? Especially if there are three boys ahead of her in the succession

 

[isabella]

I think who Mary‘s match to William is still likely under any circumstance, unless William married earlier to Liselotte...
Anne in Portugal and Elizabeth in Denmark can work so we need just brides for the boys (I wonder if either Maria Sophia or Maria Anna of Neuburg would work for James’ heir and a Dutch for one of the boys)

 

[Valena]

Agreed rhere, could Mary be considered for the dauphin? Especially if there are three boys ahead of her in the succession

The three boys ahead in the succession line would form weird combo of BOTH Brits willing to offer Mary as the Dauphine and French not wanting to take her given "baseness of her mother" as excuse.

Given that the 2nd Duchess of York TTL is still a French proxy and a good 4 years earlier than OTL, probably an Austrian proxy match for a heir is likely/would be palatable to Louis XIV, though both in case of James of Cambridge and Charles of Kendal their Orleans' cousins would be in consideration as brides for them.

 

[VVD0D95]

The three boys ahead in the succession line would form weird combo of BOTH Brits willing to offer Mary as the Dauphine and French not wanting to take her given "baseness of her mother" as excuse.

Given that the 2nd Duchess of York TTL is still a French proxy and a good 4 years earlier than OTL, probably an Austrian proxy match for a heir is likely/would be palatable to Louis XIV, though both in case of James of Cambridge and Charles of Kendal their Orleans' cousins would be in consideration as brides for them.

Ahh tbis is true

hmm I suppose it would all depend on the situation when the lads are of the right age

 

[Valena]

I think Louise Marie would definitely be more popular with Parliament/court than Mary of Modena was - she is a niece of Prince Rupert, after all, even though her father and her uncle became estranged from each other after Elisabeth of Bohemia inheritance dispute - and her pedigree, scandalous match of her parents aside, is much better than that of Mary of Modena whose mother was a commoner.
I wonder, if the inheritance dispute is resolved (being tied to marriage negotiations), would Louise be close to her uncle?

 

[Valena]

hmm I suppose it would all depend on the situation when the lads are of the right age

Pretty much. Though knowing Charles II he'll try to sit on both chairs, so in case of 3 boys surviving a Neuburg Duchess of Cambridge and Orleans Duchess of Kendal are a go.

Regarding Edward, Duke of Gloucester, he is unlikely to marry till 1694, which would be totally different climate from when his elder brothers get married/betrothed.

 

[VVD0D95]

Pretty much. Though knowing Charles II he'll try to sit on both chairs, so in case of 3 boys surviving a Neuburg Duchess of Cambridge and Orleans Duchess of Kendal are a go.

Regarding Edward, Duke of Gloucester, he is unlikely to marry till 1694, which would be totally different climate from when his elder brothers get married/betrothed.

Oh agreed, his old man is likelt to want him tied to France as well no? Though given James II went out of his way orl during his reign to distance himself from France maybe not

 

[Valena]

Thinking it over better, I think that Gloucester title/style for the third York kid is unlikely.

Given that there is no way to diagnose the sex of the unborn child in utero in 17th century, and given that Duchess of York is going to be pregnant when Duke of Lennox and Richmond dies childless, wouldn't it be natural for these cadet Stuart titles be given to the (eventual) third son of Duke of York (so Edward gets styled Duke of Richmond and Lennox since birth, while the bastard son of Charles II inherits "only" his mother's style of Duke of Portsmouth).

An interesting future Duchess of Richmond (let's take these styles as basic) would be Hedvig Sophia of Sweden. Given marriage of Lady Elisabeth of York to future King of Denmark, and Stuart delusions of grandeur, I can see either James II or James III get in some cat-herding exercises trying to mediate between the two Nordic powers.

So, we get - either Marie Louise of Orleans + James of Cambridge and Dorothea Sophia of Neuburg + Charles of Kendal
or
Maria Sophia of Neuburg + James of Cambridge and Anne Marie d'Orleans/Marie Therese de Bourbon + Charles of Kendal (I'm not sure Louis XIV would offer a petit-fille de France to "just" second son especially when this marriage would be happening when Duke of Cambridge is already married and with children on his own; so a maternal first cousin may be offered instead of paternal one).

And Edward of Richmond + Hedvig Sophia of Sweden.

 

[VVD0D95]

Thinking it over better, I think that Gloucester title/style for the third York kid is unlikely.

Given that there is no way to diagnose the sex of the unborn child in utero in 17th century, and given that Duchess of York is going to be pregnant when Duke of Lennox and Richmond dies childless, wouldn't it be natural for these cadet Stuart titles be given to the (eventual) third son of Duke of York (so Edward gets styled Duke of Richmond and Lennox since birth, while the bastard son of Charles II inherits "only" his mother's style of Duke of Portsmouth).

An interesting future Duchess of Richmond (let's take these styles as basic) would be Hedvig Sophia of Sweden. Given marriage of Lady Elisabeth of York to future King of Denmark, and Stuart delusions of grandeur, I can see either James II or James III get in some cat-herding exercises trying to mediate between the two Nordic powers.

So, we get - either Marie Louise of Orleans + James of Cambridge and Dorothea Sophia of Neuburg + Charles of Kendal
or
Maria Sophia of Neuburg + James of Cambridge and Anne Marie d'Orleans/Marie Therese de Bourbon + Charles of Kendal (I'm not sure Louis XIV would offer a petit-fille de France to "just" second son especially when this marriage would be happening when Duke of Cambridge is already married and with children on his own; so a maternal first cousin may be offered instead of paternal one).

And Edward of Richmond + Hedvig Sophia of Sweden.

Looks good to me

 

[Valena]

Looks good to me

From the stabler succession point of view a good thing would be Maria Sophia of Neuburg as Duchess of Cambridge and a first cousin match for Duke of Kendal, so any problems from inbreeding would go to cadet line, and there is no risk of a Stuart version of George III any time soon.