WI; All of Henry VIIIs Kids Survive... But as Daughters

WorstOfHumanity

Alternate Issue;

To Catherine of Aragon, married 1509, annulled 1533
  1. Mary, b. 1510
  2. Elizabeth, b. 1511
  3. Margaret, b. 1513
  4. Catherine, b. 1514
  5. Joan, b. 1516
  6. Eleanor, b. 1518
To Elizabeth Blount, mistress
  1. Henriette, b. 1519
  • Acknowledged 1525, legitimised 1533
To Anne Boleyn, married 1533, annulled 1536
  1. Anne, b. 1533
  2. Dorothy, b. 1534
  3. Muriel, b, 1535
  4. Cecily, b. 1536
To Jane Seymour, married 1536, died 1537
  1. Phillipa, b. 1537
To Catherine Howard, married 1540, annulled 1541
  1. Joyce, b. 1541

So, how do these alternate 13 Tudor sisters change history? Henry obviously has far more brides to wed off to foreign matches, but he is still without a male heir. Does he eventually cut his losses and begin readying one of them for the throne, or does he stick it through to the end, his obsession with having a son leading him to madness?
 

BoleynBuff

Henry’s not going to acknowledge a fem!Henry Fitzroy. And at least Mary, and possibly Elizabeth, will be married off by the time Henry starts making “I married my brother’s wife” noises, which would drastically alter the course of the Great Matter, and thus his marriage to Anne (and all the subsequent marriages as a result).
 

Teiresias

BoleynBuff said:
Henry’s not going to acknowledge a fem!Henry Fitzroy. And at least Mary, and possibly Elizabeth, will be married off by the time Henry starts making “I married my brother’s wife” noises, which would drastically alter the course of the Great Matter, and thus his marriage to Anne (and all the subsequent marriages as a result).
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Also, didn't Henry OTL argue that his marriage was cursed by God, which was why he had only one surviving daughter? It's going to be a bit harder here if he has six surviving daughters (I mean, by that argument Louis XII's marriages were double-ultra-plus cursed, since all but two of his kids died young, and both were girls). Especially since Henry Fitzroy is a girl here, so he can't point to him as proof that he's capable of fathering boys, just not with Catherine.

Who would his daughters marry? It'd be theoretically possible to marry off his eldest daughter to James V to put Scotland and England in personal union, but I don't know if Henry would go for that.

There was also Charles V's OTL engagement to Mary. That was called off because she was too young and he couldn't wait for her to grow old enough to have kids, but might that be different here?
 

BoleynBuff

Teiresias said:
Also, didn't Henry OTL argue that his marriage was cursed by God, which was why he had only one surviving daughter? It's going to be a bit harder here if he has six surviving daughters (I mean, by that argument Louis XII's marriages were double-ultra-plus cursed, since all but two of his kids died young, and both were girls). Especially since Henry Fitzroy is a girl here, so he can't point to him as proof that he's capable of fathering boys, just not with Catherine.

Who would his daughters marry? It'd be theoretically possible to marry off his eldest daughter to James V to put Scotland and England in personal union, but I don't know if Henry would go for that.

There was also Charles V's OTL engagement to Mary. That was called off because she was too young and he couldn't wait for her to grow old enough to have kids, but might that be different here?
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Henry was very much a "rules for thee, not for me" type of guy, so I think he'd still try to claim it was cursed. He might say "God warned me six times that he wouldn't bless me with a son" (doesn't make sense, I know, but Henry rarely did when he was trying to get what he wanted). Oh, and Anne Boleyn won't have the "bearing a healthy child on the first try, unlike Katherine" protection she had after OTL Elizabeth I's birth, so she might fall even faster than OTL.

As for the girls' marriages, Henry didn't like sister Margaret, so I don't think he'd want her son inheriting England, even if it was through his daughter. The best James V could hope for is to get Elizabeth's hand. Mary will most likely marry Charles V, as he was keen on an English or French bride and the wait will be shorter than it was for OTL Mary.
 
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ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

BoleynBuff said:
The best James V could hope for is to get Elizabeth's hand. Mary will most likely marry Charles V, as he was keen on an English or French bride and the wait will be shorter than it was for OTL Mary.
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That's likely. Then Eleanor marries Francis (and we'd have two Francis/Eleanor couples ruling France....huh)
 

isabella

The names of the two elder girls need to be switched as the eldest will be without doubt named for both her grandmothers and not for her aunts
 

BoleynBuff

ordinarylittleme said:
He might, if only because Bessie had a son next iirc
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Henry only acknowledged Fitzroy so he could go “look, I have son. I strong man.” And Bessie’s next child was Elizabeth Tailboys, theorized to be Henry’s, but he didn’t acknowledge her IOTL and he certainly wouldn’t ITTL when she’s just one of a boat load of daughters.
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

BoleynBuff said:
Henry only acknowledged Fitzroy so he could go “look, I have son. I strong man.” And Bessie’s next child was Elizabeth Tailboys, theorized to be Henry’s, but he didn’t acknowledge her IOTL and he certainly wouldn’t ITTL when she’s just one of a boat load of daughters.
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Hm. Maybe we'll just say he acknowledges the girl to get back at Katherine for not having a son. I have no clue
 

WorstOfHumanity

BoleynBuff said:
Henry’s not going to acknowledge a fem!Henry Fitzroy. And at least Mary, and possibly Elizabeth, will be married off by the time Henry starts making “I married my brother’s wife” noises, which would drastically alter the course of the Great Matter, and thus his marriage to Anne (and all the subsequent marriages as a result).
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isabella said:
He would never recognise an illegitimate girl
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ordinarylittleme said:
OP said he did, I'm just trying to find a plausible reason
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I admit it is very unlikely, I just included them because of OTL; I'll probably drop them going forward
 

WorstOfHumanity

Alternate Issue (Updated);


To Catherine of Aragon, married 1509, annulled 1533
  • Elizabeth, b. 1510
Married Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, 1526​
  • Mary, b. 1511
Married James V of Scotland, 1527​
  • Margaret, b. 1513
Married Philip, Duke of Bavaria, 1532​
  • Catherine, b. 1514
Married Sir Reginald Pole, 1534​
  • Joan, b. 1516
Married William, Duke of Cleves, 1535​
  • Eleanor, b. 1518
Married Francis III, Duke of Brittany, 1532​


To Anne Boleyn, married 1533, annulled 1536
  • Anne, b. 1533
Married Eric XIV of Sweden, 1550​
  • Dorothy, b. 1534
Married Thomas Seymour, Baron of Sudeley, 1548​
  • Muriel, b, 1535
Married Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, 1550​
  • Cecily, b. 1536
Married Frederick II of Denmark, 1552​


To Jane Seymour, married 1536, died 1537
  • Phillipa, b. 1537
Married Edward Courtenay, Earl of Devon, 1552​


To Catherine Howard, married 1540, annulled 1541
  • Joyce, b. 1541
Married Henry III of France, 1565​
 
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WorstOfHumanity

BoleynBuff said:
Is this the same Philip who courted Mary I IOTL?
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Yep, I based their marraiges off of who courted Mary and Elizabeth IRL
BoleynBuff said:
Is this the son of Margaret of Clarence? Because he opposed Henry’s annulment shenanigans.
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True, but he still held influentual positions for the entirety of Henry's reign, and some encouraged Mary to marry him. Unlikely in my opinion, but it's possible that Henry could allow him to marry a daughter to keep him and his allies on side, while hoping said daughter can slowly convert him behind the scenes (or at least make him more open)
BoleynBuff said:
Why him, and not his son?
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I actually meant to write him, thanks for the heads up
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

No way henry can marry as iotl if charles is his son in law - most likely he gets an annulment of his marriage to katherine smoothly and before he had settled on marrying anne boleyn, which means he will marry a suitable foreign princess (my suggestions? renee of france or a surviving maria of portugal [the one born in 1513])
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

WorstOfHumanity said:
Married Philip, Duke of Bavaria, 1532​
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Why? Henry's not likely to need Cleves and Bavaria on his side ITTL
HortenseMancini said:
most likely he gets an annulment of his marriage to katherine smoothly and before he had settled on marrying anne boleyn
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I doubt. Charles would stop it as best he could, hoping a son of himself and his wife can succeed
WorstOfHumanity said:
  • Joyce, b. 1541
Married Henry III of France, 1565​
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Not only is he much younger, he's not likely to even succeed as king. Especially since you have her older sister marrying his uncle
WorstOfHumanity said:
  • Anne, b. 1533
Married Eric XIV of Sweden, 1550​
  • Cecily, b. 1536
Married Frederick II of Denmark, 1552​
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These two hated each other...
WorstOfHumanity said:
Dorothy, b. 1534
Married Thomas Seymour, Baron of Sudeley, 1548​
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Are you assuming they elope? Who would approve of this ever?
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

ordinarylittleme said:
I doubt. Charles would stop it as best he could, hoping a son of himself and his wife can succeed
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A son who will not be born in England…and thus a hard sell as a future heir. If Charles wants any chance of his and Elizabeth’s son on the throne, he needs to play nice with Henry, which means supporting his annulment.
 
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