WI: All of George III's (many) children we're girls?

[WorstOfHumanity]

Alternate Issue;

Charlotte, b. 1762​

Augusta, b. 1763​

Sophia, b. 1765​

Elizabeth, b. 1766​

Mary, b. 1767​

Amelia, b. 1768​

Octavia, b. 1770​

Matilda, b. 1771​

Louisa, b. 1773​

Henrietta, n. 1774​

Magdalena, b. 1776​

Anne, b. 1777​

Caroline, 1779​

Eleanor, 1780​

Johanna, 1783​

​

What shenanigans would this cause? Does Britain become the poorest* kingdom on earth purely by the virtue of dowries? Does George go mad, emulating Henry VIII's great matter and lack of male heirs? Does nothing really change, and the throne smoothly either passes to his eldest daughter or his nephew, Prince William Frederick, Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh?

 

[TimTurner]

Watched.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Provided that at least one daughter survives, she inherits Britain. George doted on his daughters IOTL, so they may get along better with him - Hanoverian monarchs traditionally did not get along well with their male heirs.

Hanover goes to the King's oldest surviving male heir.

 

[WorstOfHumanity]

Provided that at least one daughter survives, she inherits Britain. George doted on his daughters IOTL, so they may get along better with him - Hanoverian monarchs traditionally did not get along well with their male heirs.

Hanover goes to the King's oldest surviving male heir.

That was my thought as well, though there is always the possibility it goes to a nephew or brother so as to keep Britain and Hanover together? Or George might try to strongarm those in Hanover to change the rule and allow his daughter to inherit - after all, no monarch wants to lose land, especially land within Europe

 

[Analytical Engine]

That was my thought as well, though there is always the possibility it goes to a nephew or brother so as to keep Britain and Hanover together?

Only if all the daughters die. Britain doesn't use semi-salic law.

Or George might try to strongarm those in Hanover to change the rule and allow his daughter to inherit - after all, no monarch wants to lose land, especially land within Europe

I don't know enough about how attached George III was to Hannover to comment on this. Even so, I don't know if Hannover would actually agree.

 

[BoleynBuff]

Does Britain become the richest kingdom on earth purely by the virtue of dowries?

No, because Britain would have to pay dowries for the daughters. Parliament is having a really bad day. Though considering Queen Charlotte’s OTL attitude about letting her daughters leave the nest, probably only the eldest will marry.

 

[WorstOfHumanity]

No, because Britain would have to pay dowries for the daughters.

Oops, you're right

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Though considering Queen Charlotte’s OTL attitude about letting her daughters leave the nest, probably only the eldest will marry.

Nah. She'll want grandsons to serve as heir

 

[HortenseMancini]

Not nearly as bad as Henry VIII's situation as England is decently more stable than it was in the aftermath of the Cousins War and there have already been four reigning queens by this point. I know George and Charlotte were reluctant to let their daughters leave the nest in OTL but here they will have no choice - their daughters must marry if the line is to continue. The Princess Royal will surely marry close to home, or at least to some non-sovereign foreign prince, once it becomes clear that she will succeed her father on the throne. As for the other girls, at least one of them will have to marry in order to serve as backup to the Princess Royal. In that way, I could see George and Charlotte being like an 18th century Queen Victoria - insisting on their daughters marrying princes who are unimportant enough to not take them 'away'.

 

[Nuraghe]

Only if all the daughters die. Britain doesn't use semi-salic law.

I don't know enough about how attached George III was to Hannover to comment on this. Even so, I don't know if Hannover would actually agree.

at the beginning of his reign, George III considered Hanover to be a millstone around Britain's neck ( like the majority of Britons ) so he wouldn't have complained if he lost it, but after 1782 things change on his relationship with his ancestral homeland. family ( so much so that he shows that he wants to visit him, the first time in 1784, the second time during his illness in 1789, in order to find husbands for his daughters, he undertakes a foreign policy in open opposition to his cabinet only because it would favor Hanover ( see the league of princes, created by him in order to oppose the Bavaria - Netherlands exchange of Joseph II ) finally he is ready to declare war on both Napoleon and Prussia in case of occupation in 1806 ) so I would say that he would possibly like to keep it in the family, but I don't think the electorate itself will allow it ( and I'm not considering what the entire HRE thinks about it ) since it will have the chance to free itself from the " British yoke " ( which has repeatedly destroyed Hanover's chances of growing to defend its own interests ) therefore probably the territory will go to a younger brother of his with male offspring

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

That was my thought as well, though there is always the possibility it goes to a nephew or brother so as to keep Britain and Hanover together? Or George might try to strongarm those in Hanover to change the rule and allow his daughter to inherit - after all, no monarch wants to lose land, especially land within Europe

Not a chance. You would need imperial approval to change the laws and the Brunswick Welfs will surely oppose it (for the very reason you mention about losing land).
Given that Emperor Franz II was looking for a way to cut Britain (and Prussia) OUT of the empire because he felt they generally voted AGAINST the Habsburg attempts to "centralize" and "solidify", he'll say good riddance to bad rubbish and let the Brunswicks inherit

 

[SavoyTruffle]

There are several ramifications if George III only has daughters.

* First off is that Britain and Hanover split earlier - at George's death rather than at William IV's death. Realistically neither side would view it as a huge loss - there was a faction within Britain that thought Hanover was a millstone, an unnecessary burden on the Continent that was easy pickings for when their enemies came a-knocking.
* No Queen Victoria. This is significant because Parliament's ascendancy over the Crown only solidified with Victoria's reign - her ascension to the throne at a young age combined with being unprepared for the role meant she deferred to her ministers more and more often. We don't know how George's daughters will reign - even if one can argue that since none of them are sons they won't be as cultivated as potential monarchs.
* The issue of the Crown's finances might not be that big - sure, one could argue that they'd lose a ton of money due to the dowries of the daughters. But IOTL George III's sons were notorious for abusing the royal purse - George IV was perennially in debt to a lot of people, for instance. So it's probably better to shoulder those one-time payments than the continual drains on the Crown that the boys were.

 

[Jonathan]

What shenanigans would this cause?

The courting and marriages will be like something straight out of a Jane Austen’s novel. All potential suitors will be lined up to attempt to woo the future queen of Britain similar to OTL Victoria.

Does Britain become the poorest* kingdom on earth purely by the virtue of dowries?

George III and Parliament would work out an arrangement, most likely arranging trade deals and settlements that doesn’t bankrupt the royal treasury. Internal marriages would also be arranged when appropriate, allowing titles, lands and offices in exchange for dowries.

Does George go mad, emulating Henry VIII's great matter and lack of male heirs?

I doubt his mental health would change from OTL if anything he may find life easier without battling his son but again I believe his health would be the same.

Does nothing really change, and the throne smoothly either passes to his eldest daughter or his nephew, Prince William Frederick, Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh?

The eldest daughter gets the British throne without a doubt. Will Queen Mary and Queen Anne setting the precedent.

The issue with the Hanover throne is that to succeed to the throne, you need more than just a male heir, the males can’t be born from morganatic marriage which rules out William Frederick, Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh, so with their being no suitable males from the Hanover dynasty (all of the spare sons from George II down, died without issues, does the Hanovian throne go semi-salic law and stay with the daughters or does the throne become open for grabs?

 

[Nuraghe]

The courting and marriages will be like something straight out of a Jane Austen’s novel. All potential suitors will be lined up to attempt to woo the future queen of Britain similar to OTL Victoria.

George III and Parliament would work out an arrangement, most likely arranging trade deals and settlements that doesn’t bankrupt the royal treasury. Internal marriages would also be arranged when appropriate, allowing titles, lands and offices in exchange for dowries.

I doubt his mental health would change from OTL if anything he may find life easier without battling his son but again I believe his health would be the same.

The eldest daughter gets the British throne without a doubt. Will Queen Mary and Queen Anne setting the precedent.

The issue with the Hanover throne is that to succeed to the throne, you need more than just a male heir, the males can’t be born from morganatic marriage which rules out William Frederick, Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh, so with their being no suitable males from the Hanover dynasty (all of the spare sons from George II down, died without issues, does the Hanovian throne go semi-salic law and stay with the daughters or does the throne become open for grabs?

it is simply inherited by the Welfs of Brunswick Wolfenbuttel under imperial law, making everyone happy in the process : the Britons, the Hanoverians themselves, the same Welfs uniting all their dynastic holdings, Austria and finally Prussia ( which will find itself without rivals to hinder its influence in the north of the Reich, if we exclude Vienna of course )

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

it is simply inherited by the Welfs of Brunswick Wolfenbuttel under imperial law, making everyone happy in the process : the Britons, the Hanoverians themselves, the same Welfs uniting all their dynastic holdings,

Not all. The Bevern and Oels lines still exist at the time of George III's last daughter IIRC.

And his sister, Augusta, will be pushing even harder for her eldest son to marry the TTL Princess Royal (OTL she also did but Queen Charlotte but a spoke in that wheel rather quickly, since she loathed the Brunswicks and even warned her brother off marrying Karoline as a second-wife). Here, George might agree to a match, if only so that his grandchildren will inherit Hannover as well as England. Parliament was also not in favour of a Brunswick-Royal match, since they viewed Augusta's own match as having been worthless (although they might appease her with a second daughter).

A hilarious candidate for Prince Consort would be...Max Joseph of Pfalz-Zweibrücken (or as OTL, Max I, King of Bavaria). Born a Protestant (although his dad was already Catholic, to "get ahead" in the Habsburg army rather than from sincere conviction), he and his brother only converted in the 1770s when the Bavarian succession was in jeopardy. MJ's dad and Queen Charlotte's brother in Austrian service were comrades in arms. And MJ used this to swing an invite to the British court OTL (although George III denied the application of a passport).

But, if by the time the future queen's marriage is being debated, MJ's uncle (Karl Theodor) is still in good health, and his older brother and nephew are all blocks to the Electorship. British Parliament is like "sure, lets go with this one, he can at least come to England and live here" (OTL Max spent most of the 1780s either fighting with the Deux-Ponts in the US, thus becoming the first royal to set foot on modern US territory or living it up in Paris). Fast forward to 1800 and the future prince consort of England is now suddenly the heir to Bavaria and the Palatinate.

Oh the irony. Britain got rid of one German albatross and by tryig to be clever, wound up with another, Catholic one.

 

[Nuraghe]

Not all. The Bevern and Oels lines still exist at the time of George III's last daughter IIRC.

And his sister, Augusta, will be pushing even harder for her eldest son to marry the TTL Princess Royal (OTL she also did but Queen Charlotte but a spoke in that wheel rather quickly, since she loathed the Brunswicks and even warned her brother off marrying Karoline as a second-wife). Here, George might agree to a match, if only so that his grandchildren will inherit Hannover as well as England. Parliament was also not in favour of a Brunswick-Royal match, since they viewed Augusta's own match as having been worthless (although they might appease her with a second daughter).

A hilarious candidate for Prince Consort would be...Max Joseph of Pfalz-Zweibrücken (or as OTL, Max I, King of Bavaria). Born a Protestant (although his dad was already Catholic, to "get ahead" in the Habsburg army rather than from sincere conviction), he and his brother only converted in the 1770s when the Bavarian succession was in jeopardy. MJ's dad and Queen Charlotte's brother in Austrian service were comrades in arms. And MJ used this to swing an invite to the British court OTL (although George III denied the application of a passport).

But, if by the time the future queen's marriage is being debated, MJ's uncle (Karl Theodor) is still in good health, and his older brother and nephew are all blocks to the Electorship. British Parliament is like "sure, lets go with this one, he can at least come to England and live here" (OTL Max spent most of the 1780s either fighting with the Deux-Ponts in the US, thus becoming the first royal to set foot on modern US territory or living it up in Paris). Fast forward to 1800 and the future prince consort of England is now suddenly the heir to Bavaria and the Palatinate.

Oh the irony. Britain got rid of one German albatross and by tryig to be clever, wound up with another, Catholic one.

of course the irony would be immense 😂, but perhaps here their alliance with Prussia would make logical sense compared to Otl ( since inheriting Bavaria they are very close to Austria, which has ambitions in the area ) moreover it could occur to them to try to make their agenda in Germany ? ( Bavaria, Palatinate and British influence combined are a very interesting combination for possible HRE/Germany developments, but I doubt that Westminster would be capable of such a complex reasoning 😇😅😉 )

I am more than certain that at the first opportunity they will try to exchange it for something else and then in the future they will regret it

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

of course the irony would be immense 😂, but perhaps here their alliance with Prussia would make logical sense compared to Otl ( since inheriting Bavaria they are very close to Austria, which has ambitions in the area ) moreover it could occur to them to try to make their agenda in Germany ? ( Bavaria, Palatinate and British influence combined are a very interesting combination for possible HRE/Germany developments, but I doubt that Westminster would be capable of such a complex reasoning 😇😅😉 )

I am more than certain that at the first opportunity they will try to exchange it for something else and then in the future they will regret it

In all likelihood, if he's going to be king-consort of England, Max might be more willing to allow the Austrian exchange of Bavaria for Belgium. While much is made of Karl Theodor's offer that sparked the WotBS, lesser known is that there was a second deal, just before Karl Theodor died. When Max succeeded OTL 2/3 of the electorate was already occupied by Austrian troops.

Also around this time OTL, the British were kicking around the name of Queen Charlotte's nephew-in-law, the Prince von Thurn und Taxis, for a potential "king" of the Belgians.

While I doubt Max would be happy about losing Bavaria, in 1800 it was one of the poorest and underdeveloped electorates. Trading that and getting coal-rich Belgium instead*? Where Belgium has sea access for Britain to land troops, Bavaria they would require friendly states between the Rhine and Isar (problematic since in the Napoléonic Wars those were mostly pro-French).

*I'm actually not sure if 1790s Bavaria has any resources that would make London go "hmm...maybe we should keep that"

 

[Nuraghe]

In all likelihood, if he's going to be king-consort of England, Max might be more willing to allow the Austrian exchange of Bavaria for Belgium. While much is made of Karl Theodor's offer that sparked the WotBS, lesser known is that there was a second deal, just before Karl Theodor died. When Max succeeded OTL 2/3 of the electorate was already occupied by Austrian troops.

Also around this time OTL, the British were kicking around the name of Queen Charlotte's nephew-in-law, the Prince von Thurn und Taxis, for a potential "king" of the Belgians.

While I doubt Max would be happy about losing Bavaria, in 1800 it was one of the poorest and underdeveloped electorates. Trading that and getting coal-rich Belgium instead*? Where Belgium has sea access for Britain to land troops, Bavaria they would require friendly states between the Rhine and Isar (problematic since in the Napoléonic Wars those were mostly pro-French).

*I'm actually not sure if 1790s Bavaria has any resources that would make London go "hmm...maybe we should keep that"

true, but we are still talking about a much more prestigious and richer electorate than Hanover ( if we consider only the military capabilities of the two states, the Bavarian one was the third after the two great German powers ) furthermore the influence of Bavaria - Palatinate would be much greater than what the British had before in the HRE ( of course would find the almost certain opposition of Austria and Prussia ) but personally if I were in this situation I would have a thought ( considering also the British influence in Hesse, Holland, the Welfs cousins and the ecclesiastical territories on the Rhine, which usually were in the hands of the Wittelsbachs, see in particular Cologne ( certainly now it is in the hands of the Habsburgs, but we understood each other ) but obviously almost certain that the English would not have considered all these things even for a moment and would have exchanged the Netherlands for Bavaria with Austria ( thus making half the Reich enemies, Prussia included )

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

true, but we are still talking about a much more prestigious and richer electorate than Hanover (if we consider only the military capabilities of the two states) furthermore the influence of Bavaria - Palatinate would be much greater than what the British had before in the HRE ( of course would find the almost certain opposition of Austria and Prussia )

Actually Bavaria's army, for the most part, was far smaller than the Pfalzer one (despite its larger size). At a 1785 review, the Pfalzer (i.e the Upper and Lower Palatinate) army numbered 18592 men. If we're including the Berg-Jülich holdings, it goes up to 22447 men. Bavaria couldn't even field/pay HALF that number. Most of the Bavarian generals of the Napoléonic Wars (except Wrede) were Pfalzers, not Bavarians. But disregarding quantity over quality, London will be looking at that realizing they're gonna have to go running every time Bavaria is attacked.

ut personally if I were in this situation I would have a thought ( considering also the British influence in Hesse, Holland, the Welfs cousins and the ecclesiastical territories on the Rhine, which usually were in the hands of the Wittelsbachs, see in particular Cologne ( certainly now it is in the hands of the Habsburgs, but we understood each other ) but obviously almost certain that the English would not have considered all these things even for a moment and would have exchanged the Netherlands for Bavaria with Austria ( thus making half the Reich enemies, Prussia included )

AIUI Leopold II and Franz II had decent relations with Friedrich Wilhelm II. And as long as his general, Brunswick, is getting Hannover, he might be willing to go along with it. Friedrich Wilhelm III likely gets a British bride here, as he was supposed to until Prinny fucked it up. FWIII wanted to marry Princess Augusta but the regent ibsisted that FWIII marry the Princess Royal. The grand old duke of York tried to save the day by suggesting that Royal marry another suitor instead, but Prinny insisted and then insulted the Prussians as well, before having the cheek to say "BTW, that loan you were gonna give me? We still good for that, right?" Berlin told him to fuck off and he had to make alternate arrangements to pay off his debts, eventually culminating in his marriage

 

[Nuraghe]

Actually Bavaria's army, for the most part, was far smaller than the Pfalzer one (despite its larger size). At a 1785 review, the Pfalzer (i.e the Upper and Lower Palatinate) army numbered 18592 men. If we're including the Berg-Jülich holdings, it goes up to 22447 men. Bavaria couldn't even field/pay HALF that number. Most of the Bavarian generals of the Napoléonic Wars (except Wrede) were Pfalzers, not Bavarians. But disregarding quantity over quality, London will be looking at that realizing they're gonna have to go running every time Bavaria is attacked.

AIUI Leopold II and Franz II had decent relations with Friedrich Wilhelm II. And as long as his general, Brunswick, is getting Hannover, he might be willing to go along with it. Friedrich Wilhelm III likely gets a British bride here, as he was supposed to until Prinny fucked it up. FWIII wanted to marry Princess Augusta but the regent ibsisted that FWIII marry the Princess Royal. The grand old duke of York tried to save the day by suggesting that Royal marry another suitor instead, but Prinny insisted and then insulted the Prussians as well, before having the cheek to say "BTW, that loan you were gonna give me? We still good for that, right?" Berlin told him to fuck off and he had to make alternate arrangements to pay off his debts, eventually culminating in his marriage

interesting, I didn't know that the prince regent had screwed up relations with the court of Berlin so much, so if it weren't for George IV there would have been an antecedent Prusso-British marriage


however before that I was not referring to the relations between Austria and Prussia ( I know that Leopold II had made some openings in that sense ) but rather between Great Britain and the rest of the HRE ( considering that in 1784, George III had created the league of princes to stop this exchange, obtaining great acclaim in Germany among his counterparts, it seems to me that a few years later agreeing to this exchange would be British diplomatic suicide vis-à-vis of the HRE states which are not Austria or Prussia )