WI / AHC Industrial Revolution Without Textiles

As per the thread title, is there a way to have the Industrial Revolution - i.e. the first industrialisation - happen without textiles being a meaningful part of it.

This thread was inspired by some of the discussion in the Early Roman Industrialization thread, but I've raised it as a more general discussion topic since I'm interested in whether this can happen anywhere.

As was touched on in that thread, textiles have several features which makes them extremely appealing for mechanisation:

(i) High price elasticity of demand, i.e. a small decrease in the price allows many more of them to be sold, and thus creates a larger market. This meant that any small improvements in mechanisation allowed cheaper textiles, larger markets, and a virtuous circle of technological development. The high price elasticity of demand applied to cotton textiles most of all, but to a lesser degree woolen and linen textiles, too.

(ii) Textiles are valuable, light and non-perishable, meaning that they can be transported relatively cheaply and sold in markets around much of the world.

(iii) Textiles have many uses, in clothing, sails, other cloth purposes, etc. This makes the potential market even larger.

(iv) High demand for labour in several steps - carding, spinning, weaving - meaning that there's lots of scope for technological improvements which have great profitability. In turn, this fostered the development of many engineering techniques which could be applied to many other developing industries.

In OTL, textiles were an extremely important part of the Industrial Revolution, to the point where it has been seriously argued that textile mechanisation was the Industrial Revolution, or at least that it would have been impossible without textiles. But, this being about alternate history - is it possible to have an *Industrial Revolution where textiles are not involved, or at least an insignificant component?

It doesn't matter where this *Industrial Revolution happens. It could be in an *Britain where for some reason textiles haven't taken off. It could be elsewhere in Europe. It could be anywhere in the world, really. No doubt industrialisation will spread to textiles sooner or later. That's probably inevitable, given their nature. But for the formative stages of this *Industrial Revolution, textiles should not be a major driver.

Or, to put it another way, are there possible industries, or a combination on industries, where there is enough scope for early mechanisation, large market size, multiple uses, high price elasticity of demand, etc to foster an industrial revolution without textiles?
 
Things extracted from below the surface of the earth are generally another field where mechanisation makes a lot of sense, where various substances have large markets and multiple uses, where demand is thus elastic etc.
China is often cited as a place for industrialisation to happen. Due to the high prices and status of its chief export product, silk, an industrialising China might ban industrialisation of textile manufacturing wherever its long arm reaches, in order to protect their advantage. They extracted petrol, gas, coal and ore with proto-industrial methods; all of them could be expanded on, and a few steps later, you might have a society where many sectors are industrialising before textiles finally join, too, because the ban and monopoly can`t be sustained for ever.
Iron and steel have many, many possible purposes and industrially manufacturable goods. So does petrol, if chemical knowledge advances fast enough.
 
In my mind, the decisive factor was the "bottomless" demand of the textile market when cotton cloth became affordable for much of Europe. Nearly endless room for growth was what gave sufficient incentive for sustained innovation.

Cotton was a cheap prestige cloth with a whole continent of people as a market; people who would replace their wardrobe, and buy more sets if the price declined further. Plus clothes wear out and need replacing to begin with.

Such sustained demand is extraordinarily hard to come by, which is why it was more typically artificially generated to sustain growing economies.

This is a slight tangent, but we moderns take economic growth rather for granted, so I'll indulge. History suggests it's much easier for a growth economy to induce demand than for sustained demand to induce a growth economy. Addictive products like tobacco, tea, sugar, opium, and smart phone games are a standard recourse; but they are just tools of a mercantile growth economy - they won't create industrialization. Colonization also had it's opportunities, allowing the colonizer to eliminate local industry as the British did and the Chinese could have. These are "normal" forms of elevated demand.

Our topic is a different creature altogether: IOTL it was textiles that created growth without anyone particularly intending it or forcing it. For that, only three examples come to mind: textiles in Europe, silver in China, and war materiel in very hypothetical scenarios.

Having dealt with textiles, it's worth pointing out that probably the best example of "infinite" demand is early-modern China's silver hunger. For several centuries the potent combination of China's transition to silver currency and her expanding population defined the global economy and kinda-sorta financed European world conquest. OTL the price gradient between the two ends of Eurasia shattered empires, incentivized genocides, and determined the fate of nations. In the right circumstances demand for currency by a very large state might supply incentive for industrialization of mining.

The third option I'd posit is sustained warfare by a substantial economy. It's generally considered more a bug than a feature, but war does tend to create nearly infinite demand for its tools. Certainly it has a very strong incentivizing power. It would need to be war at arm's length, given the disruption that follows war at home, but a sustained war or series of wars lasting decades might exert a similar force on a near-modern economy. There might be an alternative to textiles there.
 
A sweeping naturist movement where clothes are rarely worn and only done so for the purposes of protection not cosmetics. That's one way to significantly lessen the demand for textiles. That seems an unlikely thing to change the face of humanity, Jesus would have to be a nudist I'd think for it to be remotely feasible.

The problem is that you'd want something that's non perishable but also wears down. So while jewelery could work in other categories eventually the market would stop unless jewelry became the fashion stand in in a nudist culture. There's certainly a lot of steps from mining to the finished product.

Possibly another aspect would be if pilgrimages/tourism were done by everyone, or something really advocated for. If you have the entire population with the desire to make regular pilgrimages then the service of transport and so the goods required become elasticly demanded. I'm not sure it's really feasible to start industrialisation with cars or trains however. I am not sure how much road building and more importantly road maintenance would be needed to sustain an industry
 
Things extracted from below the surface of the earth are generally another field where mechanisation makes a lot of sense, where various substances have large markets and multiple uses, where demand is thus elastic etc.
China is often cited as a place for industrialisation to happen. Due to the high prices and status of its chief export product, silk, an industrialising China might ban industrialisation of textile manufacturing wherever its long arm reaches, in order to protect their advantage. They extracted petrol, gas, coal and ore with proto-industrial methods; all of them could be expanded on, and a few steps later, you might have a society where many sectors are industrialising before textiles finally join, too, because the ban and monopoly can`t be sustained for ever.
Iron and steel have many, many possible purposes and industrially manufacturable goods. So does petrol, if chemical knowledge advances fast enough.
Intriguing possibility. Even in the OTL Industrial Revolution, the progression of coal, iron, steelworking and steam engines operated more or less independently of the development of cotton textiles, at least for a while.

The thing about iron goods is that while the demand may not be as "bottomless" as cotton textiles, there's still a very significant scope for expansion if things can be done more cheaply and/or produced in larger volume. There are several markets: construction of mining and transport infrastructure to extract and move coal, a significant demand for iron goods as part of improved agriculture (a big market in OTL), iron goods for household markets (every house with a cast iron cookpot and a few other things makes for a large market), iron in construction, etc, etc.

Would it have been possible without the huge influx of capital generated by textiles? I'm not sure - it's a subject of debate today - but possibly a coal-iron-steel industrial revolution could have developed more slowly even without textiles.

Wood cutting and woodwork comes off as a natural alternative here to me.
Hmm. The right kind of woodcraft can be valuable, but there are limitations in terms of wood supply, and it's much bulkier than textiles to transport. Perhaps as part of a broader pattern of development, say if *Sweden managed an indigenous industrial revolution (wood was a major part of their industrialisation in OTL)?

In my mind, the decisive factor was the "bottomless" demand of the textile market when cotton cloth became affordable for much of Europe. Nearly endless room for growth was what gave sufficient incentive for sustained innovation.

Cotton was a cheap prestige cloth with a whole continent of people as a market; people who would replace their wardrobe, and buy more sets if the price declined further. Plus clothes wear out and need replacing to begin with.

Such sustained demand is extraordinarily hard to come by, which is why it was more typically artificially generated to sustain growing economies.
Certainly the demand needs to be (apparently) bottomless to drive the kind of ongoing innovation which drove the OTL Industrial Revolution.

Which leads to a related question: would an alternative be to have a smaller, lower population region have the first industrial revolution in another commodity (not textiles) where, in comparison to the size of the country industrialising, the demand was essentially bottomless. In OTL, the market for cotton textiles in Europe was (largely) served by Britain with a population of approximately 5-7 million during the eighteenth century. The global market for any other non-textile commodities is almost inevitably going to be smaller in absolute terms, but could it be large enough relative to the size of a smaller region industrialising for the first time? Or, to put it another way, is there a minimum size population required for a region to industrialise first?

This would take a country/region producing a valuable product which for some reason other countries couldn't generate in sufficient quantity to emerge as competitors, but there may be some circumstances where that's possible.

This is a slight tangent, but we moderns take economic growth rather for granted, so I'll indulge. History suggests it's much easier for a growth economy to induce demand than for sustained demand to induce a growth economy. Addictive products like tobacco, tea, sugar, opium, and smart phone games are a standard recourse; but they are just tools of a mercantile growth economy - they won't create industrialization. Colonization also had it's opportunities, allowing the colonizer to eliminate local industry as the British did and the Chinese could have. These are "normal" forms of elevated demand.
Is tobacco somewhat more amenable to mechanisation/increased demand than the others? I say this based on the historical experience of how demand for tobacco expanded over time, and with the development of machinery (principally the cigarette-rolling machine), the demand increased even in per capita terms. This was a large part of how parts of the USA like North Carolina industrialised, due to the spread first of tobacco processing, and then cigarette manufacture. Of course, this wasn't the original industrial revolution, so it could draw on innovations from elsewhere. But it is an example of where demand for tobacco in different forms grew, including hand-rolled cigarettes, to the point where it turned out to be profitable to mechanise their production.

Having dealt with textiles, it's worth pointing out that probably the best example of "infinite" demand is early-modern China's silver hunger. For several centuries the potent combination of China's transition to silver currency and her expanding population defined the global economy and kinda-sorta financed European world conquest. OTL the price gradient between the two ends of Eurasia shattered empires, incentivized genocides, and determined the fate of nations. In the right circumstances demand for currency by a very large state might supply incentive for industrialization of mining.
Very interesting idea. Of course, silver mining from the New World in OTL wasn't particularly mechanised due to the use of forced labour from the indigenous population. In circumstances where this was not possible, might silver mining (together with spinoffs in other mining) have driven industrialisation? Or possibly silver mining elsewhere in the world, whether to supply silver to China or some other large ATL state.

The third option I'd posit is sustained warfare by a substantial economy. It's generally considered more a bug than a feature, but war does tend to create nearly infinite demand for its tools. Certainly it has a very strong incentivizing power. It would need to be war at arm's length, given the disruption that follows war at home, but a sustained war or series of wars lasting decades might exert a similar force on a near-modern economy. There might be an alternative to textiles there.
That would also be interesting, and rather different from what we think of for an industrial revolution. Presumably linked to the first country which developed conscription, and with a focus on metalworking for weaponry, boots and the like, standardised interchangeable parts for ease of logistics, etc. They might be importing textiles and so not develop their own textile industry, but still develop rather a different form of industrialisation.

A sweeping naturist movement where clothes are rarely worn and only done so for the purposes of protection not cosmetics. That's one way to significantly lessen the demand for textiles. That seems an unlikely thing to change the face of humanity, Jesus would have to be a nudist I'd think for it to be remotely feasible
There may be less dramatic ways of reducing the demand for textiles: just have them produced elsewhere by hand and imported. India was a massive source of cotton textile imports in OTL. A combination of British colonial interference in India, and domestic protective tariffs, meant that they were able to develop their own cotton textile industry without being swamped by Indian competition. In other circumstances, such British protectionism may be impossible or just not attempted, thus nixing textiles as a driver of industrialisation.

The problem is that you'd want something that's non perishable but also wears down. So while jewelery could work in other categories eventually the market would stop unless jewelry became the fashion stand in in a nudist culture. There's certainly a lot of steps from mining to the finished product.

Possibly another aspect would be if pilgrimages/tourism were done by everyone, or something really advocated for. If you have the entire population with the desire to make regular pilgrimages then the service of transport and so the goods required become elasticly demanded. I'm not sure it's really feasible to start industrialisation with cars or trains however. I am not sure how much road building and more importantly road maintenance would be needed to sustain an industry
Jewellery suffers from both expensive raw materials and a natural limit to demand (how much jewellery does everyone want). Perhaps as part of a broader whole? Similarly, road building and maintenance may drive some industrial growth, such as production of goods for sealed roads, but would probably need to be part of a larger development.

How about the mechanisation of food processing, or the creation of metal products?
Food processing has some potential, but comes up against the problem of market saturation pretty quickly - people only need so much food, and transporting it in bulk is expensive and vulnerable to local food production. However, there may well be some useful links to to the military-driven industrialisation which @Admiral Matt suggested, with canned (or bottled) goods being extremely valuable for military logistics, even if general food consumption is not that high. With spin-offs for the production of food storage methods and technologies, and possibly improved metal and/or glass production for the storage.
 
The iron industry is a good one. Puddling dates back to 3rd century BC in China, and the Song dynasty produced 100 times more iron per year than Europe. But if what happened in China was not a true IR, then I'm not sure how much further it could've been taken without high demand for iron like ships and bridges of the 19th century.

Coal and petroleum is another one. Heating them in a retort and repeated distillation would produce kerosene, as the Persians discovered in the 9th century. Kerosene would revolutionize heating, cooking, home and street lighting. They could also be made into paraffin wax candles. A truly bottomless market. Petroleum kerosene was apparently less smokey than coal kerosene during the 19th century and regarded superior.

Gutta Percha would be my think out of the box pick. It was originally used by Malays to make knife handles. Picked up in the 19th century by the British medical/vetenary community for making scaple handles, dental fillings and repairing horse hooves, it was soon made into golfballs, decorative items, and shoe soles. Gutta Percha was industrialized using extrusion machines based on pasta makers and was made into cups, jugs, pipes, everything we use plastics for now. It's place in OTL IR was short lived because it was replaced by synthetic polymers. A factory producing standardized shoe soles and cheap bottles would have products welcomed by the poor.

http://atlantic-cable.com/Article/GuttaPercha/
 
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Certainly the demand needs to be (apparently) bottomless to drive the kind of ongoing innovation which drove the OTL Industrial Revolution.

Which leads to a related question: would an alternative be to have a smaller, lower population region have the first industrial revolution in another commodity (not textiles) where, in comparison to the size of the country industrialising, the demand was essentially bottomless. In OTL, the market for cotton textiles in Europe was (largely) served by Britain with a population of approximately 5-7 million during the eighteenth century. The global market for any other non-textile commodities is almost inevitably going to be smaller in absolute terms, but could it be large enough relative to the size of a smaller region industrialising for the first time? Or, to put it another way, is there a minimum size population required for a region to industrialise first?

This would take a country/region producing a valuable product which for some reason other countries couldn't generate in sufficient quantity to emerge as competitors, but there may be some circumstances where that's possible.

My gut says there is definitely a minimum, but I couldn't guess what it might be.

Is tobacco somewhat more amenable to mechanisation/increased demand than the others? I say this based on the historical experience of how demand for tobacco expanded over time, and with the development of machinery (principally the cigarette-rolling machine), the demand increased even in per capita terms. This was a large part of how parts of the USA like North Carolina industrialised, due to the spread first of tobacco processing, and then cigarette manufacture. Of course, this wasn't the original industrial revolution, so it could draw on innovations from elsewhere. But it is an example of where demand for tobacco in different forms grew, including hand-rolled cigarettes, to the point where it turned out to be profitable to mechanise their production.

Perhaps I made a better point than I thought, lol.

Tobacco would be an excellent candidate for this among intoxicants. Extremely high addictiveness, potential for mechanization, limited disruption to labor (as opposed to alcohol), and poisonous mostly on a longer timescale. One can imagine a state industrialized in its production forcibly opening colonial markets.

Perhaps. Although how you get the foundation laid is a question. Contact must be earlier, or textile industrialization greatly delayed, in order to permit the opportunity. A European-derived or mixed-race state with late-medieval technology, centered on the Delaware-North Carolina corridor?

Very interesting idea. Of course, silver mining from the New World in OTL wasn't particularly mechanised due to the use of forced labour from the indigenous population. In circumstances where this was not possible, might silver mining (together with spinoffs in other mining) have driven industrialisation? Or possibly silver mining elsewhere in the world, whether to supply silver to China or some other large ATL state.

The key problem is the New World. So far as I can tell, American plants enabled the greater part of Chinese population growth. China could be expected to double her population after the Mongols' defeat, returning to peak Song numbers. Perhaps we can handwave it tripling. But OTL a historically somewhat-stable population grew by a factor of 7 in four and a half centuries. So you need New World crops to have the effect at that extreme.

But the New World has far, far too much silver, too easily accessible. There's labor, initially, and even if populations decline more labor can be imported. We want crazy prices to return mining to tapped out or less-ideal deposits, because that's what will drive innovation, mechanization, et al. So this might work best if New World contact hasn't occurred at all when silver prices spike.

Tricky.

Perhaps a different period would make it work. Perhaps a different metal. Perhaps both.

That would also be interesting, and rather different from what we think of for an industrial revolution. Presumably linked to the first country which developed conscription, and with a focus on metalworking for weaponry, boots and the like, standardised interchangeable parts for ease of logistics, etc. They might be importing textiles and so not develop their own textile industry, but still develop rather a different form of industrialisation.

Agreed.

Food processing has some potential, but comes up against the problem of market saturation pretty quickly - people only need so much food, and transporting it in bulk is expensive and vulnerable to local food production. However, there may well be some useful links to to the military-driven industrialisation which @Admiral Matt suggested, with canned (or bottled) goods being extremely valuable for military logistics, even if general food consumption is not that high. With spin-offs for the production of food storage methods and technologies, and possibly improved metal and/or glass production for the storage.

Can canning develop at scale from preindustrial methods?
 
To me, looking at the Industrial Revolution starts not with technology but with demand, and demand comes from rising wages. Lowering the price on commodity through mechanization wont get very far without it. Even Da Vinci was working on mechanizing textiles, but what paid his bills was promising new weapons to his patron.

I think we're overlooking the effect of rising wealth from the spice trade, the sugar and slave trade on increasing wages in England, and the limitations of what money can buy in the old economy. Tea you can buy with New World silver. Sugar you can make by throwing away the lives of slaves. But wealthy people demanding textiles for clothes and upholstries you can only meet with industry.
 
I think iron (and by extension) steel production is the best bet, for the reasons mentioned upthread, as well as the fact that like textiles, durable goods production creates spinoff industries in transportation, intermediate goods (chemicals, tools, dyes for cloth, etc.) and marketing, which amplifies the impact.

The issue though is that, as far as I know, the capital requirements for production and processing iron into useful stuff are significantly higher than textiles, which even today have the lowest barrier of entry for any path towards industrialization. IOTL, capital accumulation from colonialism and early industrialization helped develop that capital base. Without that, the best option would seem to be state-led industrialization, perhaps even a palace economy. Why would they do that? War, for one, or a particularly technologically inclined elite. Both of those things seem like they could emerge fairly easily in Asia. My mind drifts to a successful Hideyoshi campaign in Korea giving Japan access to Korea's coal and steel, an early Japanese imperialism in Southeast Asia, and an eventual mass military mobilization for a decades-long war with China, birthing industry as part of an arms race on both sides....
 
The iron industry is a good one. Puddling dates back to 3rd century BC in China, and the Song dynasty produced 100 times more iron per year than Europe. But if what happened in China was not a true IR, then I'm not sure how much further it could've been taken without high demand for iron like ships and bridges of the 19th century.
The high nineteenth-century demand for iron from ships, bridges etc was largely a function of as iron became cheaper and more efficient to produce over the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, it became more cost-effective to use it in a greater variety of end-products, which in turn increased the market, encouraging further innovation, etct. It was its own kind of virtuous circle, the same general process which had made mechanising textiles worthwhile, but slower. Whether that would be possible in an ATL without the indirect benefits of textiles (capital, rising trade and thus wages, etc) is an open question.

I've seen various explanations of why Song China did not develop an analogue to the industrial revolution, such as the cost of labour being too low to encourage mechanisation, and even geographical barriers such as rapids on rivers between the ironworking locations and coal sources meaning that coal remained too expensive. I don't know if there's ever been a definitive answer to that one.

Coal and petroleum is another one. Heating them in a retort and repeated distillation would produce kerosene, as the Persians discovered in the 9th century. Kerosene would revolutionize heating, cooking, home and street lighting. They could also be made into paraffin wax candles. A truly bottomless market. Petroleum kerosene was apparently less smokey than coal kerosene during the 19th century and regarded superior.
Hmm. That would be really interesting in a country with the combination of access to petroleum and some of the other factors which are considered necessary for an industrial revolution. Okay, so everyone argues on which of those factors were actually essential - but at least somewhere with reasonable political stability and access to decent export markets.

Gutta Percha would be my think out of the box pick. It was originally used by Malays to make knife handles. Picked up in the 19th century by the British medical/vetenary community for making scaple handles, dental fillings and repairing horse hooves, it was soon made into golfballs, decorative items, and shoe soles. Gutta Percha was industrialized using extrusion machines based on pasta makers and was made into cups, jugs, pipes, everything we use plastics for now. It's place in OTL IR was short lived because it was replaced by synthetic polymers. A factory producing standardized shoe soles and cheap bottles would have products welcomed by the poor.

http://atlantic-cable.com/Article/GuttaPercha/
Very interesting find. My only question would be whether there was enough supply of the timber to permit industrialisation. Though perhaps cultivation/extraction of the supply would be part of the industrialisation process, via plantations or some such method?

My gut says there is definitely a minimum, but I couldn't guess what it might be.
My totally unscientific hunch is 1-2 million people and access to export markets several times larger than that, but it's not based on anything other than how it seemed that not all of the British population was directly involved in the industrial areas.

Tobacco would be an excellent candidate for this among intoxicants. Extremely high addictiveness, potential for mechanization, limited disruption to labor (as opposed to alcohol), and poisonous mostly on a longer timescale. One can imagine a state industrialized in its production forcibly opening colonial markets.

Perhaps. Although how you get the foundation laid is a question. Contact must be earlier, or textile industrialization greatly delayed, in order to permit the opportunity. A European-derived or mixed-race state with late-medieval technology, centered on the Delaware-North Carolina corridor?
Textile industrialisation can be delayed in a variety of ways. One is interfering with British sources of cotton, say by having them kept out of India by another colonial power. Cotton can be grown elsewhere, but it was access to Indian cotton which started the process which led to industrialisation, and if Britain wasn't getting that, then they wouldn't begin down that road. Another is by having a different British mercantile policy. In OTL Britain forbade imports of woven Indian cotton, but permitted the import of raw cotton. This was done to protect the local wool weaving industry. Say that the wool protectionists are even stronger, and all cotton imports are prohibited for a while. That sort of policy won't last forever either, but would again slow down textile industrialisation.

Earlier contact with the Americas would also be interesting, though obviously requires an early PoD and an even more unrecognisable world. Norse in North America is fairly cliched and difficult though not impossible to achieve. It would be amusing if less probable if something like the legend of Prince Madoc was true in an ATL and there was a mixed culture developed in North America before Columbus arrived, and which then despite plagues and so forth, evolved into a tobacco exporting region.

The key problem is the New World. So far as I can tell, American plants enabled the greater part of Chinese population growth. China could be expected to double her population after the Mongols' defeat, returning to peak Song numbers. Perhaps we can handwave it tripling. But OTL a historically somewhat-stable population grew by a factor of 7 in four and a half centuries. So you need New World crops to have the effect at that extreme.

But the New World has far, far too much silver, too easily accessible. There's labor, initially, and even if populations decline more labor can be imported. We want crazy prices to return mining to tapped out or less-ideal deposits, because that's what will drive innovation, mechanization, et al. So this might work best if New World contact hasn't occurred at all when silver prices spike.

Tricky.

Perhaps a different period would make it work. Perhaps a different metal. Perhaps both.
So two possibilities are either to introduce New World crops before European New World contact, or find a way to stop or at least limit New World silver production.

For the first, perhaps the OTL Polynesian contact with South America - which got sweet potatoes to central Polynesia by ~AD 700 - managed to pick up potatoes as well. If those two spread to China together, that could make for a considerable population boom even earlier than OTL, with or without the Mongols. For the second... the only thing I can think of is a PoD which means that some of the New World silver resources are much less known by the indigenous peoples, which means in turn that the Spanish don't know to exploit them. Perhaps the Andean silver reserves in Cerro Rico de Potosí are unknown because of <handwave>, leading to much more reduced (though not zero) silver available from the Spanish colonies in the New World, and the Chinese demand is unsatiated?

If looking at other metals, one possibility is that lead, silver and zinc often occur together in deposits. Say if there was a higher demand for zinc in brass, due to an earlier spread of elemental zinc extraction techniques? (Started in OTL ~AD 1300 in India, but not known in Europe until about the mid-eighteenth century). That would give an incentive for extraction of both, and development of techniques.

I'm not sure what the best deposits for that would be, though. The largest silver-zinc-lead deposits I know of are in Australia, but in locations which are hard to reach even if there's earlier contact with Australia (Broken Hill and Mt Isa, both in desert regions far from the coast).

Can canning develop at scale from preindustrial methods?
Depends on whether they have the right pre-requisites, but potentially yes. It needs either glass bottles (which would be valuable enough to be reused) or metal cans, probably iron. Which in turn presupposes some kind of ironworking industry, not necessarily as advanced as in OTL, but not insignificant, either.

From that, it would take a couple of decades at least of military demand to drive innovation. This process kinda-sorted started in OTL under Napoleon, with a large reward being offered for anyone who could find a viable food preservation method, but it took until 1809 before someone realised that food heated in sealed jars did not go off unless the seal was broken. There were some efforts to exploit that, but things did not move fast enough to matter until 1815.

An *Napoleonic Wars where someone had the same realisation in 1792 might have developed in interesting ways.

To me, looking at the Industrial Revolution starts not with technology but with demand, and demand comes from rising wages. Lowering the price on commodity through mechanization wont get very far without it. Even Da Vinci was working on mechanizing textiles, but what paid his bills was promising new weapons to his patron.

I think we're overlooking the effect of rising wealth from the spice trade, the sugar and slave trade on increasing wages in England, and the limitations of what money can buy in the old economy. Tea you can buy with New World silver. Sugar you can make by throwing away the lives of slaves. But wealthy people demanding textiles for clothes and upholstries you can only meet with industry.
Demand for textiles is certainly important, in the sense that there needs to be enough people around who have the wealth to buy them to make it worth investing in improvements in mechanisation etc. High wages are also important in that they increase incentives to mechanise. There is certainly a school of thought that high wages in Britain were what made the Industrial Revolution possible, because it made more sense to invest in machines when wages were high, since there were greater savings. (Which is why early textile machines did not sell well in say, France, since it was cheaper just to hire more weavers than buy a spinning jenny.)

That said, the most useful part of textiles was not so much selling them to wealthy people per se, as being able to generate an excellent export market. During the Industrial Revolution, Britain was exporting two-thirds of its cotton textiles and one-third of its woolen textiles. So high domestic wages are probably part of the requirement for mechanisation, but there still needs to be a good export market for whatever product is chosen. Textiles did it very well, without doubt. The question is whether something else can also do so well in exportability.
 
The high nineteenth-century demand for iron from ships, bridges etc was largely a function of as iron became cheaper and more efficient to produce over the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, it became more cost-effective to use it in a greater variety of end-products, which in turn increased the market, encouraging further innovation, etct. It was its own kind of virtuous circle, the same general process which had made mechanising textiles worthwhile, but slower. Whether that would be possible in an ATL without the indirect benefits of textiles (capital, rising trade and thus wages, etc) is an open question.

I've seen various explanations of why Song China did not develop an analogue to the industrial revolution, such as the cost of labour being too low to encourage mechanisation, and even geographical barriers such as rapids on rivers between the ironworking locations and coal sources meaning that coal remained too expensive. I don't know if there's ever been a definitive answer to that one.

Going by Angus Maddison's data Song China only had half the per capita GDP of 1700 England. Of course China was a big place. The Yangtze estuary was certainly wealthy. Then there's the matter of raising capital to build the factories. English banking and financing was far away more advanced than Song China. The schemes that hatched the giant South Sea Company stock bubble was as sophisticated as the financial innovations that caused the real estate bubble last decade.

Hmm. That would be really interesting in a country with the combination of access to petroleum and some of the other factors which are considered necessary for an industrial revolution. Okay, so everyone argues on which of those factors were actually essential - but at least somewhere with reasonable political stability and access to decent export markets.

I think this is the most feasible, especially in the Middle East and Indonesia. 19th century oil drilling technology was actually very similar to, and some say borrowed from those in China. So somehow combine that with Muslim chemistry know how. Early wildcatters were often two guys and a mule train of supplies to build one rig. Labor was insanely low compared to coal mining.

Very interesting find. My only question would be whether there was enough supply of the timber to permit industrialisation. Though perhaps cultivation/extraction of the supply would be part of the industrialisation process, via plantations or some such method?

It would be like growing rubber or oil palm, though certainly more of an investment than pumping oil out of the ground.
 
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My totally unscientific hunch is 1-2 million people and access to export markets several times larger than that, but it's not based on anything other than how it seemed that not all of the British population was directly involved in the industrial areas.

Seems plausible enough.

Textile industrialisation can be delayed in a variety of ways. One is interfering with British sources of cotton, say by having them kept out of India by another colonial power. Cotton can be grown elsewhere, but it was access to Indian cotton which started the process which led to industrialisation, and if Britain wasn't getting that, then they wouldn't begin down that road. Another is by having a different British mercantile policy. In OTL Britain forbade imports of woven Indian cotton, but permitted the import of raw cotton. This was done to protect the local wool weaving industry. Say that the wool protectionists are even stronger, and all cotton imports are prohibited for a while. That sort of policy won't last forever either, but would again slow down textile industrialisation.

Earlier contact with the Americas would also be interesting, though obviously requires an early PoD and an even more unrecognisable world. Norse in North America is fairly cliched and difficult though not impossible to achieve. It would be amusing if less probable if something like the legend of Prince Madoc was true in an ATL and there was a mixed culture developed in North America before Columbus arrived, and which then despite plagues and so forth, evolved into a tobacco exporting region.

Perhaps circa 1200 the Almohads send an adventurer to sail West to China? &) Columbus' misconceptions about the Earth's circumference were all based on favoring Islamic sources over Greek calculations, IIRC.

Fast forward a quarter millennium to 1450. The New World has undergone a Columbian (Almohadian?) Exchange. It's a patchwork of settler colonies, conquered native empires, and independent people's, heavily weighted to the latter. One mercantile state in Europe or Morrocco has possession of the Susquehannah, Cape Fear, Cumberland Gap, and most in between. Its settlers and navy are sufficient to hold the place, but not to overcome the settlers and fortifications defending better pickings: interior access via the St Lawrence, Hudson (River and Bay), and Mississippi. The Delaware Valley is occupied by hostile colonists, hemming in the north. The large native groups to the south and southwest are in loose alliance with a third colonial power.

In those circumstances, the state might plausibly double-down on tobacco. It might help if the tail were to start wagging the dog at some point, like the Portuguese exile in Brazil. The question then is how big a market can they generate? If it's an American, European, and Mediterranean luxury item that's one thing. If it can be made to take off in India, Southeast Asia, or China....that's another matter altogether.

People who buy fabric don't need convincing on the merits of a shirt. Hooking a percentage of mankind on an expensive habit is more of an uphill climb.

Oops. Out of time. I'll reply to the rest a bit later.
 
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It's a bit over simplistic but the IR to me was always steam engine time meets textile mechanisation and boom.
I can't think of one single thing that can replace textiles and give the same effect.
That probably means several things need to coincide - greater demand for ore and foodstuffs might do it depending on ease of cause.
 

missouribob

Banned
As per the thread title, is there a way to have the Industrial Revolution - i.e. the first industrialisation - happen without textiles being a meaningful part of it.
Depending on how you set the brightlines for the term industrial revolution or the first wave of industrialisation the Song Empire DID do this. I can explain more if you'd like.
 
Talking about the contribution of cotton textiles seems relatively simple. Check out - https://pseudoerasmus.com/2015/04/26/mccloskey-cotton-ir/.

The data seems to show that, even under the assumption that, for the British IR, although cotton textiles were a star industry with outlying productivity growth, the contribution to the total productivity growth of the Industrial Revolution was low. The IR was a broad spectrum change in productivity and mechanization, not reliant on a particular star industry to hugely lead growth in productivity (even the most disproportionately improving). There may even be a stronger case than reckoned, once more industries are measured and accounted for (example in the link is candle making).

So it shouldn't be a problem to imagine a British IR without much contribution from cotton, if raw cotton access was limited; by failures of colonial relationships in cotton producing regions, for example, or legal prohibitions.

But removing all textiles entirely from the British IR seems tough, as the worsted and woolen sector, at least, shows signs of high productivity growth. Or any IR if industrial revolutions are inevitably characterised by broad, cross sector improvements, and textiles production happens in the state in question at all. It depends on what we're looking for in "a meaningful part".

(Also worth a look: https://pseudoerasmus.com/2017/01/05/ca/ and https://pseudoerasmus.com/2014/11/10/slavery_and_industrialism/).
 
We've had this discussion, Jared, back in days half a decade ago or more in regard to Lands of Red and Gold, where you revealed an intention to have an IR but one that skipped textiles. Then I think I was more of a naysayer than a help, and now I am only going to repeat something I said then that is being overlooked here....

...a key aspect of the IR being a real revolution in how people live is the capitalist commodity sector revolutionizing the lives of the working classes by providing for their material needs at a lower cost than ever. In short an IR really reaches critical mass when consumer goods, necessary for the survival and reproduction of the working classes employed by capitalists, are themselves produced by more efficient industrial means. Reducing the price of a major segment of the needs of the workers enables capitalists to pay smaller wages and pocket larger profits, and it is these large profits that attract more investment into the capitalist-industrial sector and thus drive ongoing mechanization and other process changes relying more and more on elaborated capitalist institutions and driving down the necessary labor content of given items, thus lowering the cost of acquiring and consuming them.

In this context it seems textiles have an edge in being key, important materials for the market to evolve around. The high profit sectors of early textile industrialization may indeed have gone first, and examples such as Jacquard loom products which I presume were sold to well-off homes show that it starts in the luxury trade. But industrialized cloth production, especially of cottons, also reached down pretty early to the cheap end of the market, offering bolts of fabric of only moderate fineness but of great utility to the masses at prices far below what handcraft workers could offer. When this happened, it became possible for workers to cut their expenses in the dimension of clothing, blankets and so forth, and these savings soon propagated to employers who could offer lower wages and still expect adequately strong and teachable workers to apply for work, thus undercutting other workers who may have looked forward to spending their savings from using cheaper industrial made cloth and cloth products, but instead found themselves forced by falling wages to to choose the cheaper fabrics though they left them no savings, since old-fashioned hand made cloth was now out of reach for them. Lower wages for workers due to cheaper fabrics lower capital costs across the board and thus a surge of investment and production. The workers don't benefit from it, not right away anyway, but other classes do.

To the extent then that alternative ATL primary industrial products pass their lowered costs on to the working classes themselves, any of them can have the powerful feedback effect cheaper costs can cause. However, it is hard for me to imagine just how that would work with some other commodity class nearly as well as with fabrics. As you pointed out, food has a rather limited market day to day. Hardware made from either ceramics or metals has some potential, but since the major drive of an industrializing society is to remove people from miscellaneous craft work and put everyone to work on specialized tasks, commodification tends to focus on consumer goods that do not themselves enable production. A member of the desperate working poor classes is not going to acquire large inventories of cutlery or pottery--indeed they will want a fair amount of it, and the cheaper the better, offset by any desire to leverage better than average wages into social climbing where they would wish to display their use of a higher quality of goods. But I think such hardware, even allowing for the fact that pre-industrial families produced a lot of goods on a household basis and thus required more capital in the form of tools, was always a smaller and lower priority budget item than essential clothing and other fabric goods such as bedclothes. And so it goes.

The general pattern of the industrialization of an industry then may well be that first the luxury market is being attacked, since the rich have most of the disposable wealth. But expansion will take the form of middling classes wishing to appear more prosperous purchasing large amounts of pretty good quality goods--and it becomes really transformative of the society, locking itself in irrevocably and forcing really large numbers of workers into the industrial proletariat, when a category of goods becomes available, with modestly superior quality (or perhaps a bit inferior) at a lower price than craft work can produce it, and the cost of reproducing the working classes themselves is thereby lowered as they switch to buying these goods--and then the mass base for the craft producers collapses, and those workers are pauperized and forced onto the industrial labor market, further lowering prices and creating opportunities for industrial production for the masses.

Note that when British cloth was exported to India in the mid-19th century, ruining the native Indian textile craft industry, it was not reams of cloth for the maharajas or other rich Indian classes that choked the life out of small textile producers, but the millions of reams sold to the common working masses; despite the inherent costs of sourcing the fabric on one continent, processing it on a second continent and then shipping it to a third, these cottons were cheaper than what could be made domestically in India at the bottom of the market. So even if textile industrialization began as a toy of the rich, it very quickly developed into staples for the poor, and that globally.

Can something similar be done with woodwork, or ceramics, or iron, steel, or other metal workings as the basis? Maybe, but it looks tough to accomplish to me, and the final iteration of locking the society in by cheapening the working capability of the poor working class itself would be mitigated and delayed I'd think.

Now perhaps this is the whole point; you'd perhaps like to see an industrially capable society grow that isn't so starkly proletarianized?
 
So two possibilities are either to introduce New World crops before European New World contact, or find a way to stop or at least limit New World silver production.

For the first, perhaps the OTL Polynesian contact with South America - which got sweet potatoes to central Polynesia by ~AD 700 - managed to pick up potatoes as well. If those two spread to China together, that could make for a considerable population boom even earlier than OTL, with or without the Mongols. For the second... the only thing I can think of is a PoD which means that some of the New World silver resources are much less known by the indigenous peoples, which means in turn that the Spanish don't know to exploit them. Perhaps the Andean silver reserves in Cerro Rico de Potosí are unknown because of <handwave>, leading to much more reduced (though not zero) silver available from the Spanish colonies in the New World, and the Chinese demand is unsatiated?

Potatoes and sweet potatoes ought to do enough of it, yes. Without Europeans diffusing the crops globally, China's population and demands would spike well before the new crops were established west of the Indus (perhaps even west of Sumatra?), thus exerting disproportionate impact on the smaller economies there.

The trouble is, though, that we'd need to rewrite centuries of Chinese monetary and political history, because the Chinese weren't using silver for coinage. What follows is an infernal oversimplification, but should give an idea of the obstacles.

Pre-Imperial cowrie gift exchange was elaborated into (mostly bronze) coins at the onset of the Spring-Autumn period (I want to make a case that the timing isn't coincidental but involved causation, but have to try and control my digressions). Then the pre-Imperial wars were fought using bronze/gold/cowrie economies until the Qin made the Chinese cultural sphere into China and enforced bimetallism: gold for aristocrats and bronze for farmers. Various alloys of bronze dominated through the first dynasties, the centuries of division, the Sui reunification, and the Tang. The Song practiced bronze/iron bimetallism until paper currency (evolved from something like personal checks) took off and they decided co-opting it was easier than forbidding it, so China went to paper. Paper was what created a window for silver in China, because the Mongols continued its use, instituted labor-drafts, and paid the draftees in paper that depreciated because the Yuan dynasty was pretty terrible at governance. When the Ming failed to end this hated foreign imposition, private silver coining exploded too quickly to suppress and the Ming gave in to popular pressure as the Song had before them.

This is probably why silver demand was so inflated in China: they had different cultural/systemic expectations for the prevalence of cash because they were accustomed to materials with greater availability.

The challenge is that reproducing the transition from bronze to silver centuries earlier entails a fairly complete rewrite of several centuries of Chinese history. And because the Mongols are involved of Eurasian history. All that before you really get started! It's not a subplot; it's a major project in and of itself.

Again out of time replying to just the one post, lol. Ah well. Later.
 
If looking at other metals, one possibility is that lead, silver and zinc often occur together in deposits. Say if there was a higher demand for zinc in brass, due to an earlier spread of elemental zinc extraction techniques? (Started in OTL ~AD 1300 in India, but not known in Europe until about the mid-eighteenth century). That would give an incentive for extraction of both, and development of techniques.

I'm not sure what the best deposits for that would be, though. The largest silver-zinc-lead deposits I know of are in Australia, but in locations which are hard to reach even if there's earlier contact with Australia (Broken Hill and Mt Isa, both in desert regions far from the coast).

I can't see it, I don't think. How on earth does demand for one sort of brass spike far past OTL? Currency sure wouldn't do it. Currency choices represent a mix of top-down and bottom-up decisions, but neither seems like it would seek out quite that choice. A very large economy choosing a currency would be very unlikely to put all its eggs in an obscure Australian basket.

I was thinking of gold as the most likely candidate. The incredible global economic incentives the Ming created demonstrated that there would always be a new mine somewhere in the world with silver to fund half dozen wars, if only those prices kept up. The end of silver as a global currency and the weird populism of Gilded Age America are both attributable to the absurd scale of the Nevada silver deposits exploited circa 1870. By the modern day, the price of silver remains hopelessly and permanently depressed.

Gold though, has proven able to conserve value to a far greater degree. Which is to say that until we properly exploit asteroid mining, gold remains plausible currency, whatever it's inconvenience. IOTL, most New World gold seems to have ended up parked in Hindu and Buddhist temples in South and SE Asia due to a smaller but significant price disparity. Had the Ming ended up relying on gold instead, it might have been quite a different story.

There are probably other metals that could have worked in the premodern era (or might someday), but I'm not qualified to speculate. I am somewhat skeptical that a particular alloy could play the role, rather than a particular element.

Depends on whether they have the right pre-requisites, but potentially yes. It needs either glass bottles (which would be valuable enough to be reused) or metal cans, probably iron. Which in turn presupposes some kind of ironworking industry, not necessarily as advanced as in OTL, but not insignificant, either.

From that, it would take a couple of decades at least of military demand to drive innovation. This process kinda-sorted started in OTL under Napoleon, with a large reward being offered for anyone who could find a viable food preservation method, but it took until 1809 before someone realised that food heated in sealed jars did not go off unless the seal was broken. There were some efforts to exploit that, but things did not move fast enough to matter until 1815.

An *Napoleonic Wars where someone had the same realisation in 1792 might have developed in interesting ways.

Or why wait till 1792? If the proof of concept had been done, and a few enthusiastic proponents had been kicking around since the early '80s, working out the kinks.... Maybe if a niche commercial market already existed in 1792....
 
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