WI/AHC Germanic italy

[Gukpard]

Basically the objective of this challenge is to make Italy a germanic region by the 21st century, independent of which government or country that holds the peninsula, the PoD is the lombard conquest of italy

Just a reminder, from wikipedia:

"Over time, the Lombards gradually adopted Roman titles, names and traditions. By the time Paul the Deacon was writing in the late 8th century, the Lombardic language, dress and hairstyles had all disappeared"

So by the 8th century, the kingdom of lombards was only lombard in the name, as it got completely "italianized"

 

[Histor32]

well that is your largest problem. Rome had a 1000 years of prestige. hell Tsar, Kaiser are all other names for Caesar. you will need them to burn Italy and the church to the ground, remove latin. this is going to be a very tough sell. It was much easier to rule with Church blessing, and by adopting the stronger culture., where as no one remembers Lombard culture.

 

[Histor32]

that said, holy roman empire federalizes at its peak with a strong central government, holding its Italian lands. German becomes the lingua franca over the centuries for educated people and government function. many new popes are from German lands, Latin slowly becomes a less used language outside of the Vatican for church usage.

that's about all I got.

no idea how all of that happens with out serious handwavum

 

[Kerney]

A King similar to Alfred the Great of Wessex, who empathisis is on Germanic custom, law, common "Lombard" language for records and who strengthens those customs at an early enough point.

Perhaps he does it to counter Byzantine "Roman" influence, giving people a choice to be Roman or Lombard. Maybe add in more migrants in a way that helps.

Or, start earlier and wipe Rome off the map.

 

[The Undead Martyr]

If the Gothic wars and Lombard Invasion (the latter of which, unlike the Goths, deliberately destroyed every bit of Roman architecture they could get their hands on) couldn't accomplish this then the HRE, which explicitly did not rely upon a notion of German nationality but Frankish Kingship over many "peoples" (thus accommodating the various antionalities.. .a hypothetical Federalized empire would probably keep Latin longer and would definitely not lead to mass Germanization without massive demographic upheavals akin to the Deluge and 30 Years War affecting Italy etc and sparing Italy proper) aren't going to accomplish this either.

Medieval Italy is sort of like Iran, India and China to the TransAlpine "conquest dynasties" and just as the various "barbarians" tended to assimilate into Italo-Roman Culture (hence the Holy Roman Empire).

The easiest PoD is to nerf Rome and wank the Casalpine Gauls, perhaps. By late antiquity I think it's too late for a mass Germanization of Padania, the best you can get is heavier Lombard/Frankish influence in a scenario where royal power on the peninsula is maintained.

 

[Histor32]

A King similar to Alfred the Great of Wessex, who empathisis is on Germanic custom, law, common "Lombard" language for records and who strengthens those customs at an early enough point.

Perhaps he does it to counter Byzantine "Roman" influence, giving people a choice to be Roman or Lombard. Maybe add in more migrants in a way that helps.

Or, start earlier and wipe Rome off the map.

start early, start often
I agree on the Alfred take, but its an extreme uphill battle.

 

[Histor32]

if you can the east west split more severe, have the east trying to press its will, have the Lombard's or the Hapsburgs with a more centralized HRE swoop in as saviors of western tradition and the church, that might get the brownie points from the one group you need in your corner, the Catholic Church.

 

[Indicus]

Medieval Italy is sort of like Iran, India and China to the TransAlpine "conquest dynasties" and just as the various "barbarians" tended to assimilate into Italo-Roman Culture (hence the Holy Roman Empire).

I mean, India has a huge amount of Persia cultural influence - even the commonly-used name for the country ("Hindustan") comes from Persian.

So, I guess you could have large amounts of Germanic culture in Italy, following that model.

 

[DominusNovus]

Kill off all the Latins and settle the land with Odin worshipping Germanic peoples of some stripe.

Okay, maybe the first part isn't absolutely necessary. Lets use Turkey as a parallel. You need a different religion, no strong desire to adopt the local religon or language, and having a convenient spot to put the locals still speaking the old language, that doesn't hurt (though, even then, it was the downfall of the Ottomans that lead to said relocation).

 

[WeissRaben]

ASB. You can get the Italian language to be extremely more influenced by Germanic languages, but the problem is that Italy was just too densely populated - and even the Gothic Wars were not enough to change this.

 

[Zajir]

All of Italy is ASB, but could it be possible to have all of Veneto speak German/another germanic language?

 

[Joshuapooleanox]

No Cesare Borgia?

 

[Arkenfolm]

All of Italy is ASB, but could it be possible to have all of Veneto speak German/another germanic language?

Even that seems kinda hard. Maybe you could the Trento region though. Also with good political circumstances, you could get a higher amount of Germans in places like Triest than OTL, but they'd be almost exclusively urban. Maybe also Gorizia too.

Of course, most (aside from the urban ones) wouldn't speak German, but rather a language akin to Mocheno or Cimbrian.

 

[Kerney]

Kill off all the Latins and settle the land with Odin worshipping Germanic peoples of some stripe.

Okay, maybe the first part isn't absolutely necessary. Lets use Turkey as a parallel. You need a different religion, no strong desire to adopt the local religon or language, and having a convenient spot to put the locals still speaking the old language, that doesn't hurt (though, even then, it was the downfall of the Ottomans that lead to said relocation).

You look at most Turkish speaking Muslims and many if not most of their ancestors were Byzantine Greeks. The same is true of most English being quite British once upon a time.

With the Byzantines you had very successful Sufi preachers bringing about culture change and eroding Greek identity.

Perhaps if Christianity is not as established, creating a Roman cultural bedrock and there is some cultural ripple within Germanic culture which didn't exist otl, perhaps Northern Italy is possible.