WI: Abraham Lincoln Brigade in Vietnam

[Deleted member 40957]

According to the Wiki article on Milton Wolff, commander of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade during the Spanish Civil War, later in life Wolff offered his services and those of other Brigade veterans to Ho Chi Minh.

Uncle Ho turned them down (probably because a handful of elderly Americans wouldn't contribute much to the war effort), but what if he saw some propaganda value in having American veterans - lead by a former OSS operative - on his side? What effects would this have on morale and on the public perception of the war? Would other radicals volunteer for the Brigade? (I'm getting a mental image of Jane Fonda actually using that AA gun...)

[btw, this might be a Wikirumor, but I thought it was a really interesting PoD]

 

[Deleted member 40957]

(bumping because I think this could generate some good discussion, what with all the Vietnam conversations on here lately)

 

[Jericho15]

Maybe. It would have been incredibly awkward for those Americans that went there but I wouldn't put anything past the ignorant members of the Boom Generation.

 

[Deleted member 40957]

Maybe. It would have been incredibly awkward for those Americans that went there but I wouldn't put anything past the ignorant members of the Boom Generation.

I don't think there would be too many New Lefties eager to go to Vietnam, because most of them were a) leading fairly comfortable lives and b) trying to stick to peaceful methods even if they romanticized violent guerrillas. However, the SDS faction that in OTL became the Weathermen might head over there...and later in life be a little regretful as they probably would be exiled permanently, risking arrest if they went home. I doubt they'd be pardoned like the draft dodgers were, not if their actions were seen as treasonous.

What about black radicals? A few of them didn't identify with America at all, so they'd be a little bit less worried about the repercussions than upper-class white kids would be. I can imagine Eldridge Cleaver leading an International Brigade, eager to fight whites in uniform with no consequences.

Europeans might show up too, anyone from curious intellectuals like Regis Debray (who did something similar in Bolivia) to thugs like Baader.

Not to disparage anyone sincerely wanting to help out the Vietnamese, but the situation's not quite like Spain in 1936 and I think the number of volunteers would remain lower as a reflection of that. The impact on morale would be a lot more significant.

 

[BigWillyG]

I think this could backfire on the North Vietnamese, the American left and the anti-war movement in a big way since it would be very easy for hawks to paint the whole anti-war movement as made up of anti-American traitors who are willing to fight their own countryman for communism.

 

[Deleted member 40957]

I think this could backfire on the North Vietnamese, the American left and the anti-war movement in a big way since it would be very easy for hawks to paint the whole anti-war movement as made up of anti-American traitors who are willing to fight their own countryman for communism.

This is true, especially if younger recruits start coming in. If it was just Wolff and his comrades (most of whom were WWII vets), it might be taken more seriously, but even then it'd be very easy to paint them as "Comintern stooges".

 

[NoOneFamous]

Anyone caught would be tried for treason

 

[Matt Wiser]

I think this could backfire on the North Vietnamese, the American left and the anti-war movement in a big way since it would be very easy for hawks to paint the whole anti-war movement as made up of anti-American traitors who are willing to fight their own countryman for communism.

Very, very, easy. And it also makes prosecution easier for those "activists" who went to Hanoi to show "solidarity" with the NVN leadership-and who met with POWs (in the 1965-69 time frame-all who did so were tortured into doing it, btw)....

 

[MacCaulay]

I read Ripcord: Screaming Eagles Under Siege, Vietnam, 1970 by Keith W. Nolan a few months ago and he mentioned this odd time around Firebase Ripcord where a few different patrols (who weren't in contact with each other until after the fact) spotted what they reported as a "blonde man" with the North Vietnamese.

It was like a sasquatch sighting or something. A bunch of folks saw this guy. As soon as the word finally came out, then they started trying to send patrols out to nab this guy. They figured he was either some defector or an East German.

 

[RousseauX]

http://www.gustavhasford.com/PB.htm

It's the sequal to the short timers, the book Full Metal Jacket was based on and is by the same author. Basically there's a rumor of an American defector fighting with the Vietnamese against the Americas, and Joker ended up defecting and become that defector.

 

[Mr.J]

Maybe. It would have been incredibly awkward for those Americans that went there but I wouldn't put anything past the ignorant members of the Boom Generation.

The Abraham Lincoln Brigade were not "ignorant members of the Boom Generation", they fought in the Spanish Civil War and as such were mostly part of Hemingway's "Lost Generation".

 

[MacCaulay]

Maybe. It would have been incredibly awkward for those Americans that went there but I wouldn't put anything past the ignorant members of the Boom Generation.

Were these members of the Baby Boom generation who had a time machine so they could get back to the 1930s or something?

 

[Deleted member 40957]

Were these members of the Baby Boom generation who had a time machine so they could get back to the 1930s or something?

The Abraham Lincoln Brigade were not "ignorant members of the Boom Generation", they fought in the Spanish Civil War and as such were mostly part of Hemingway's "Lost Generation".

To be fair, I did ask about the recruiting of younger members in the OP.

 

[Matt Wiser]

That was supposedly Bob Garwood: a Marine who had been captured by the VC in 1965, and "turned" while in captivity. He always denied having been in a combat situation with the VC or NVA, though. An interesting thing is that though that was his claim, a Marine patrol had a fire-fight with some NVA west of Da Nang in 1969, and the Marines saw a Caucausian with the NVA, whom they promptly shot. The Marines ID'd Garwood from a photo book of MIAs. And when Garwood did come home in '79, he had scars from a chest wound....and the Marines who said they'd shot this White NVA reported they'd shot him in the chest. But POWs at a jungle camp said that at that time (Summer '69), Garwood was still there as an interpeter. This event has not been explained to anyone's satisfaction.

 

[Kome]

For the vets of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade their role will probably be limited to translators, interrogators and propaganda pics. Too old for much else.

For any younger volunteers joining the NVA much the same, although the KGB and GRU did have this one 'trick' they liked. After a particularly bad 'enhanced interrogation' session they would stick the poor guy back into a standard interrogation room (the non enhanced kind, you know, with a single lightbulb and table). Interrogator would ask him a few questions, normal fare. Then at some point another intelligence guy would go into the room, dressed up in camos (or a uniform if the person in question was part of an actual military) or whatever the faction the victim was from wears. Guy all dressed up would then start walking around the room, chatting with the prisoner and so on. Usually starting off with a good cop routine before going in a darker and more angry direction.

The actual interrogator wouldnt be paying the guy any mind though, or acknowledging him at all, asking the prisoner who's he talking to and so on. Meanwhile the prisoner is going hysterical, since the point of the 'trick' is to convince the prisoner that the guy talking to him is the ghost of his dead war buddy or comrade and break his will to resist the interrogators.

Its an interesting trick the Soviet advisers can try using the American volunteers, since it would probably only work on Americans if the person playing the 'ghost' is actually American.

Just something that popped into my head, since its unlikely American volunteers would be used in combat roles.

In anycase, all these volunteers, both old and new are probably going to find themselves targeted by an extension of the Phoenix Program and end up dead in a South Vietnamese storeroom somewhere.

I read Ripcord: Screaming Eagles Under Siege, Vietnam, 1970 by Keith W. Nolan a few months ago and he mentioned this odd time around Firebase Ripcord where a few different patrols (who weren't in contact with each other until after the fact) spotted what they reported as a "blonde man" with the North Vietnamese.

It was like a sasquatch sighting or something. A bunch of folks saw this guy. As soon as the word finally came out, then they started trying to send patrols out to nab this guy. They figured he was either some defector or an East German.

Thats great.

 

[Matt Wiser]

Actually, if they're in NVN, the NSA and other intelligence assets would be targeted on them. And depending on which year, A-6s or F-111s get the job of taking out whatever location in NVN these folks are at. As for an SOF operation? There were very few raids into NVN-the Son Tay raid was the most notable, but there were a few others-mainly tasked with searching for downed pilots before the NVA could find them. (not the regular AF or Navy Combat SAR teams, but these were SOG assets who went after downed pilots in areas that even the SAR people would avoid) Now, if the locales where these "volunteers" are at are proven to be accessable to a raiding party, they may very well find SOG or SEAL teams paying them a visit one moonless night in North Vietnam......

 

[Life In Black]

I read Ripcord: Screaming Eagles Under Siege, Vietnam, 1970 by Keith W. Nolan a few months ago and he mentioned this odd time around Firebase Ripcord where a few different patrols (who weren't in contact with each other until after the fact) spotted what they reported as a "blonde man" with the North Vietnamese.

It was like a sasquatch sighting or something. A bunch of folks saw this guy. As soon as the word finally came out, then they started trying to send patrols out to nab this guy. They figured he was either some defector or an East German.

Nothing like an NVA adviser to the NVA, huh Mac?

 

[Color-Copycat]

Ha ha, Nationale Volksarmee, North Vietnamese Army. I get it.

 

[BigWillyG]

That was supposedly Bob Garwood: a Marine who had been captured by the VC in 1965, and "turned" while in captivity. He always denied having been in a combat situation with the VC or NVA, though. An interesting thing is that though that was his claim, a Marine patrol had a fire-fight with some NVA west of Da Nang in 1969, and the Marines saw a Caucausian with the NVA, whom they promptly shot. The Marines ID'd Garwood from a photo book of MIAs. And when Garwood did come home in '79, he had scars from a chest wound....and the Marines who said they'd shot this White NVA reported they'd shot him in the chest. But POWs at a jungle camp said that at that time (Summer '69), Garwood was still there as an interpeter. This event has not been explained to anyone's satisfaction.

Wouldn't be surprised if the marines shot a Russian adviser and then connected that to the rumors of US defectors.

 

[Plumber]

This was offered against the French, no? This could be enough to butterfly away the Eisenhower Administration's slow entry into Vietnam in the first place.