WI A Goring style Navy?

[merlin]

When questioned about 'heavy bombers' Goring is reputed to have replied 'Hitler doesn't care how big the Luftwaffe bombers are, only how many have we got'.
WI then the same applied to the German navy! Hence, Germany didn't seek to compete with Britain with big battleships - the RN could simple build more. Moreover 'big ones' couldn't be built fast enough to make a difference. Rather, they concentrated their efforts on PBs & HCs - with the later the Lutzow & Seydlitz are completed.
With the PBs rather than the 2 triples 11" main gun arrangement, maybe they the more conventional 3 twin 11" turrets.

With smaller warships involved - how many more could be built? No need of large slipways, short build times, at multiple shipyards. Also easier to disguise building a vessel half the size (and more) of a Bismark type ship.

There may not be an Anglo-German Naval agreement - because the RN doesn't perceive the need for one - 'so what if the Germans are building some Heavy Cruisers'!

Therefore when war comes, rather than worry about a 'break-out' into the Atlantic from some large German battleship, it is beset by continually chasing shadows after report after report comes in of sinking ships!

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Uh yes there would be an AGNA, because Britain explicitly did not want them building more pocket battleships, because the damn things have the potential to be annoying as commerce raiders. Britain wants Germany to build Battleships like Bismarck, because she can build a lot more of them than Germany

Britain cares about cruisers because cruisers are meant for cruising, it's in the name. Britain uses its cruisers to protect its empire and its commerce, and to scout for its larger ships, Germany doesn't have an empire or overseas commerce to protect and no larger ships to scout for, so her cruisers are going to be raiders, raiders are what Britain does not want people building. It's worth noting Britain didn't like people building heavy cruisers at all, and tried to abolish them multiple times

You won't be building that many more because there aren't that many large slipways, and even the Pocket battleships still need large slipways. Build time isn't really low enough to squeeze in extra ships, so you are basically trading 4 battleships for four pocket battleships, and 4 more hulls that still aren't finished in 1941

 

[jsb]

There may not be an Anglo-German Naval agreement - because the RN doesn't perceive the need for one

The entire point of AGNT was to prevent a useful German navy by making it make a small worse copy of RN that RN could beat in a stand-up battle rather than an effective raiding fleet or surface ships or UBoats.

 

[Putnam]

Honestly, Germany would probably be better served focusing on uboats...

But then, I'm nowhere near an expert on this so I could be wrong.

 

[TheSpectacledCloth]

That would be a smart strategy, but they are going to have to find a way to hide their ships, similar to how they hid the Luftwaffe until 1935.

Maybe the Germans can make a deal with Finland to build the ships on their territory, in exchange for excellent trade deals.

In any case, Erich Raeder is going to have to be sacked because I'm pretty sure he was in favor of the big battleships.

 

[Monk78]

Why not just make dozens of commerce raiders from merchantmen and divert rest of the resources to torpedo bombers for sea denial.

 

[thaddeus]

with the idea they were going to develop a Plan Z fleet, the KM could build an interim fleet by rebuilding the WWI-era BBs and a class of 8" heavy cruisers off the panzerschiff design.

 

[Magnum]

Magnum's naval PoD's. Ep. 3 - MORE "Pocket Battleships"

This one's quick & easy, though probably not all that interesting: Weimar Germany somehow finds the funds and political capital to build 3 more Deutschland-class ships, up to their assigned limit of 6, before Hitler comes to power; minimal changes otherwise. What kind of effects, if any, might...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[merlin]

@Magnum - thanks for the link, Read through the comments (though not word for word) - interesting options - from Tiger let loose, to earlier 'light-carriers' 'Hawkins' conversions spring to mind, plus more 8" British Cruisers. While of course in theory the PBs were supposed to be circa 10k tons, they were nearer 14.5k tons!!
Moreover, many were of the opinion that it could have been done.

 

[Machiavelli Jr]

with the idea they were going to develop a Plan Z fleet, the KM could build an interim fleet by rebuilding the WWI-era BBs and a class of 8" heavy cruisers off the panzerschiff design.

Problem there, they haven't got any WW1-era BB, they've got the two "fighting" and two demilitarised pre-dreadnoughts, which were deathtraps even in 1914 and no amount of rebuilding can fix the fact that they're slow and under-armoured, a rebuild that makes them anything like combat-worthy for 1939 as anything other than oversized monitors would involve lifting up the bell and sliding a new ship underneath.

 

[thaddeus]

with the idea they were going to develop a Plan Z fleet, the KM could build an interim fleet by rebuilding the WWI-era BBs and a class of 8" heavy cruisers off the panzerschiff design.

Problem there, they haven't got any WW1-era BB, they've got the two "fighting" and two demilitarised pre-dreadnoughts, which were deathtraps even in 1914 and no amount of rebuilding can fix the fact that they're slow and under-armoured, a rebuild that makes them anything like combat-worthy for 1939 as anything other than oversized monitors would involve lifting up the bell and sliding a new ship underneath.

if they start early enough they have the Elsass along with Hessen and Hannover and the two in service historically. they could gamble on the high pressure steam engines retrofitted into large ships (Italy schemed to do something akin to that for their aircraft carrier), when they converted Hessen to a target ship they added about 10m and fitted new engines.

so they would have 3 PBs and 5 "Franken-ships" along with 5 PBs with quad 8" or 6.8" guns.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

Großadmiral Hermann Göring and Reichsmarschall Erich Raeder would be hilarious, though I am aware it is not what the OP meant, but the title of this thread gave me those intrusive thoughts...

Either way, it is unlikely that Britain would let Germany shit Pocket Battleships and Heavy Cruisers right and left, or Hitler for that matter, his knowledge regarding naval matters was non existent and yet he still made changes and demands on a couple of occasions. He might as well push for a battleship for national prestige.

Also, even after the Anglo-German Naval Treaty Germany did not manage to reach its allotted 35:100 ratio, while they might build Heavy Cruisers and lighter ships faster, there was and will be a larger lack of manpower, slipways and raw resources (Rectified if Goring is at the wheel)

 

[Machiavelli Jr]

if they start early enough they have the Elsass along with Hessen and Hannover and the two in service historically. they could gamble on the high pressure steam engines retrofitted into large ships (Italy schemed to do something akin to that for their aircraft carrier), when they converted Hessen to a target ship they added about 10m and fitted new engines.

so they would have 3 PBs and 5 "Franken-ships" along with 5 PBs with quad 8" or 6.8" guns.

The hulls are still crap for high speed, you've got at the absolute best something that can just about keep away from a QE and just about shoot back at a County, the window where it makes sense to rebuild even 5 of those rather than building some more CA is really really small. Replacing "battleships" with "cruisers" might not frighten the horses too much and would be a drastic increase in combat power.

 

[thaddeus]

if they start early enough they have the Elsass along with Hessen and Hannover and the two in service historically. they could gamble on the high pressure steam engines retrofitted into large ships (Italy schemed to do something akin to that for their aircraft carrier), when they converted Hessen to a target ship they added about 10m and fitted new engines.

so they would have 3 PBs and 5 "Franken-ships" along with 5 PBs with quad 8" or 6.8" guns.

The hulls are still crap for high speed, you've got at the absolute best something that can just about keep away from a QE and just about shoot back at a County, the window where it makes sense to rebuild even 5 of those rather than building some more CA is really really small. Replacing "battleships" with "cruisers" might not frighten the horses too much and would be a drastic increase in combat power.

you are absolutely correct as to the relative merits of the WWI-era ships vs. (1940) modern BBs, however (just IMO) they could be made adequate for the balanced fleet the AGNA mandates. if you build a "freak fleet" of nothing but cruisers it will have (or likely will have) very negative political effects, and not as if it could not then be matched and exceeded?

as an alternative, scrap those ships and build "coastal defense ships" (they had a hand in designing a pair for Finland in the early 1930's) able to be armed with the same 2x2 11" guns (the Finnish ships had 2x2 10" guns), probably 10-12,000t?

below that my speculation would be for 5 Pz ships armed with quad 8" (or even 6.8" guns, which they had artillery in that caliber so the ammunition would be readily available?)

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Honestly if your building a coastal Defense ship vs the otl "pocket battleships" you probably could go 2 twin 15" gun turrets and one decent armor belt and TDS. speed and range after all eat a lot of displacement

 

[thaddeus]

Honestly if your building a coastal Defense ship vs the otl "pocket battleships" you probably could go 2 twin 15" gun turrets and one decent armor belt and TDS. speed and range after all eat a lot of displacement

my speculation is for two options, a reconstruction of the WWI-era ships or replacement with similarly sized and armed ships, a concession on the range (vs, the diesel powered Pz ships)

carrying over the 11" guns would speed things up (both construction and top speed)

 

[thaddeus]

Hence, Germany didn't seek to compete with Britain with big battleships - the RN could simple build more. Moreover 'big ones' couldn't be built fast enough to make a difference. Rather, they concentrated their efforts on PBs & HCs - with the later the Lutzow & Seydlitz are completed.

With smaller warships involved - how many more could be built? No need of large slipways, short build times, at multiple shipyards. Also easier to disguise building a vessel half the size (and more) of a Bismark type ship.

There may not be an Anglo-German Naval agreement - because the RN doesn't perceive the need for one - 'so what if the Germans are building some Heavy Cruisers'!

Therefore when war comes, rather than worry about a 'break-out' into the Atlantic from some large German battleship, it is beset by continually chasing shadows after report after report comes in of sinking ships!

this is an interesting premise but the ships you are proposing as an alternative build are the ones to most antagonize the British. maybe the prospect of a dozen(s) of Pz ships and heavy cruisers could have gotten the German side a better deal with the AGNA or other concessions?

leaving aside the capital ships, which my previous suggestion was for short ranged armored ships (of some type), there were many projects of the KM left unrealized.

they had plans for Spahkreuzer, minelayers (double duty as training ships), and even small aircraft carriers, all hovering around 6,000t that seem better suited to their needs that the actual fleet build.

 

[Talwar]

I'd be curious to see more about the wee carriers, if you have links.

 

[naraic]

Honestly, Germany would probably be better served focusing on uboats...

But then, I'm nowhere near an expert on this so I could be wrong.

If they knew now what we know now a greater focus on uboats would be smart. The thing is that investing in uboats in a big way means betting on beating France and still having to fight the British empire. Having to go through the channel or around the UK would make uboat operations much much worse.

Prewar a knockout victory of France would have been assumed to be very unlikely and it would have been assumed that if France was beaten that the British would leave the war.

 

[Count of Crisco]

I dont think Hitler would go for smaller pocket battleships. He wanted to project Germany as back among the great military powers and the equal to another nation in any field, this applied to the military doubly so, and if you want to be a great power navally speaking then you will need battleships. Battleships are the final word in great naval power during the period and building smaller diminutive types will not project power the same way that a proper battleship would.