WI: A daughter for Richard the Lionheart and Berengaria of Navarre?

[HortenseMancini]

Somewhat like it sounds...Richard and berengaria get to it shortly after they’re married and have a daughter in 1192, with the girl being born in the holy land. She remains their only child. What would become of this new Angevin princess, assuming that she survives infancy? Would she succeed her father as Duchess of Aquitaine? How do John lackland, Philip Augustus of France, and Constance of Brittany react?

 

[Farfromhome]

I would assume that said daughter would be engaged to Arthur of Brittany which would shore up the succession pretty well. Obviously this would need papal consent.

How this would affect succession in Navarre, I have no clue.

 

[The Professor]

Somewhat like it sounds...Richard and berengaria get to it shortly after they’re married and have a daughter in 1192, with the girl being born in the holy land. She remains their only child. Anyways, what would become of this new Angevin princess, assuming that she survives infancy? Would she succeed her father as Duchess of Aquitaine? How do John lackland, Philip Augustus of France, and Constance of Brittany react?

Phillip probably recognises her as at least heir to Aquitaine and tries to get her married to one of his sons. John will probably just try to shore his own support up and convince Richard to name him as heir, if not he'll try the same shenanigans as OTL with Arthur and his sister and include (what I assume is called) Eleanor in.
If inheritance is still up in the air by the time Richard dies then I assume Phillip recognises her claim to Aquitaine and Arthur's to England while John scrambles to secure everything and loses a lot.

 

[Viveka Elm]

I'm not sure how Eleanor of Aquitaine felt about her son John's ability to hold her land from Philippe after her death, or if she cared if it stayed with England. But I feel that with any child of her favorite son Richard, she would make sure they would be well safe and secure. Whether in a previously arranged marriage and/or naming her as her heir, etc.

 

[Cate13]

I think a daughter of Richard and Berengaria (Eleanor? Matilda?) would have a very good chance of getting Aquitaine

 

[HortenseMancini]

what I assume is called) Eleanor

I picture her being named Aénor Matilda. She’s known mostly as Aénor in Aquitaine, but Norman and English chroniclers will call her Matilda. And before anyone says anything, there’s plenty of evidence that French speaking nobles/royals used double names during this time period.

I would assume that said daughter would be engaged to Arthur of Brittany which would shore up the succession pretty well. Obviously this would need papal consent.

That's what I was thinking too.

How this would affect succession in Navarre, I have no clue.

You raise a very good point with this...perhaps a son of Aénor Matilda could be King of Navarre?

Phillip probably recognises her as at least heir to Aquitaine and tries to get her married to one of his sons. John will probably just try to shore his own support up and convince Richard to name him as heir, if not he'll try the same shenanigans as OTL with Arthur and his sister and include (what I assume is called) Eleanor in.

Hmm...Philip's son Louis, heir to the throne of France, is only 5 years older than Aénor Matilda so that match could happen. Do you think John has any chance of gaining England and Normandy ITTL?

If inheritance is still up in the air by the time Richard dies then I assume Phillip recognises her claim to Aquitaine and Arthur's to England while John scrambles to secure everything and loses a lot.

Ah, so Philip and Richard team up to see Louis and Aénor Matilda in France and Aquitaine and Arthur in England?

I'm not sure how Eleanor of Aquitaine felt about her son John's ability to hold her land from Philippe after her death, or if she cared if it stayed with England. But I feel that with any child of her favorite son Richard, she would make sure they would be well safe and secure. Whether in a previously arranged marriage and/or naming her as her heir, etc.

Oh yeah, Eleanor is definitely wanting to see her granddaughter installed in Aquitaine. For sure.

I think a daughter of Richard and Berengaria (Eleanor? Matilda?) would have a very good chance of getting Aquitaine

I agree, especially if the French king is willing to recognize her rights.

 

[kasumigenx]

I think she will be named as Alice.

 

[HortenseMancini]

I think she will be named as Alice.

Absolutely not, Richard will be naming his daughter after his beloved mother.

 

[CaptainShadow]

Do you think John has any chance of gaining England and Normandy ITTL?

Pretty unlikely IMO. I mean, he isn't the blood proximity claimant, he isn't the semi-salic/salic claimant, he doesn't have much land to get resources to invade, therefore conquest is out and if Philip is recognizing Aénor Matilda as her father's successor then he doesn't have much French support either.

I think she will be named as Alice.

Why? She'd be Eleanor IMO.

 

[kasumigenx]

Absolutely not, Richard will be naming his daughter after his beloved mother.

Alice is the name of his aunt and sister, I think that would be used for a second daughter instead, I think Eleanor would insist on that name for her.

 

[HortenseMancini]

Alice is the name of his aunt and sister, I think that would be used for a second daughter instead, I think Eleanor would insist on that name for her.

Frankly, I don't think Richard would use the name Alice/Alix/Alys for a daughter at all. Remember, it was also the name of his French fiancée who his father stole from him. Bad memories. If Richard and Berengaria did somehow have a third daughter, Sanchia/Sancha might be used, as I doubt Richard would care enough to dictate a name for her and Berengaria's parents were named Sancho and Sancha.

 

[Ivan Lupo]

I have to believe any first daughter of Richard would be named Eleanor; just like his pops, Richard was a total momma's boy.

I know the church gave a lot of grief about John's marriage to his cousin Isabella of Gloucester, so I'm not sure if they would be super keen on Eleanor (or Aenor Matilda) marrying her first cousin. It's clearly the marriage that makes the most sense politically however, it officially binds Brittany permanently to the Plantagenet inheritance.

In OTL, Richard did name John as his heir on his deathbed, despite having had Arthur as his heir prior to his own premature death in 1199. Perhaps his attitude changes with his own heir, though I doubt Richard would allow John to be regent or protector for her. Richard can't even really afford to grant John any further lands or titles beyond what he got from his marriage to Isabella, lest he grant John the means to raise money to support his own claim to the throne.

With Eleanor still the official ruler of Aquitaine, she could certainly name her granddaughter as heir to her own lands.

 

[CaptainShadow]

Frankly, I don't think Richard would use the name Alice/Alix/Alys for a daughter at all. Remember, it was also the name of his French fiancée who his father stole from him. Bad memories. If Richard and Berengaria did somehow have a third daughter, Sanchia/Sancha might be used, as I doubt Richard would care enough to dictate a name for her and Berengaria's parents were named Sancho and Sancha.

Yeah; this.

And as for Navarrese succession, IOTL Sancho VI's younger daughter's son succeeded Sancho VII, so I think Aénor wouldn't have much local problems there. When is she born again?

Arthur I of Brittany (b. 1186) m. Matilda I of England (b. 1191?)

A) Arthur I of England (b. 1209) m. Eleanor of Portugal (b.1211)

B) Richard I of Navarre (b. 1210) m. Margaret de Quincy, Countess of Lincoln.

C) Matilda of England (b. 1213) m. Louis IX of France (b. 1214)

D) Geoffrey I of Jerusalem (b. 1216) m. Isabella II of Jerusalem (b. 1212)

E) Constance of England (b. 1218) m. John I of Hainaut (b. 1218)

F) Berengaria of England (b. 1220) m. Rudolph I, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1218)

I have to believe any first daughter of Richard would be named Eleanor; just like his pops, Richard was a total momma's boy.

I know the church gave a lot of grief about John's marriage to his cousin Isabella of Gloucester, so I'm not sure if they would be super keen on Eleanor (or Aenor Matilda) marrying her first cousin. It's clearly the marriage that makes the most sense politically however, it officially binds Brittany permanently to the Plantagenet inheritance.

In OTL, Richard did name John as his heir on his deathbed, despite having had Arthur as his heir prior to his own premature death in 1199. Perhaps his attitude changes with his own heir, though I doubt Richard would allow John to be regent or protector for her. Richard can't even really afford to grant John any further lands or titles beyond what he got from his marriage to Isabella, lest he grant John the means to raise money to support his own claim to the throne.

With Eleanor still the official ruler of Aquitaine, she could certainly name her granddaughter as heir to her own lands.

Arthur tho was Richard's heir presumptive, Aénor OTOH would be heiress apparent till the birth of a brother. I don't see Richard doing anything to bolster John's case ITTL

 

[kasumigenx]

Frankly, I don't think Richard would use the name Alice/Alix/Alys for a daughter at all. Remember, it was also the name of his French fiancée who his father stole from him. Bad memories. If Richard and Berengaria did somehow have a third daughter, Sanchia/Sancha might be used, as I doubt Richard would care enough to dictate a name for her and Berengaria's parents were named Sancho and Sancha.

If not Alice, I would agree it would be Matilda.

 

[The Professor]

Do you think John has any chance of gaining England and Normandy ITTL?

Yes but depends on how Richard sets his succession and what the nobles think of him versus Arthur versus Eleanor.

Pretty unlikely IMO. I mean, he isn't the blood proximity claimant, he isn't the semi-salic/salic claimant, he doesn't have much land to get resources to invade, therefore conquest is out and if Philip is recognizing Aénor Matilda as her father's successor then he doesn't have much French support either.

Technically he is the male blood proximity claimant since he's still one rung closer to Richard than Arthur. And he had some support to be king over Arthur OTL.
The issue is whether the nobles want another potential Matilda situation.

We're also forgetting that if Richard dies around 1200 she'll need a regent for her lands anyway. That's traditionally her closest adult male relative for those lands i.e. John.

I think while marrying her to Arthur solves a few issues, John needs something to be on board. OTL Richard granted a fair bit of titles and land and made him his lieutenant. TTL a bit more is needed.