Why Overlord?

I've been wondering about this for a while, but never really knew the right way to go about asking it.

Why did the Allied military command decide on an amphibious invasion of Europe through the northern French beachhead?

Now, on the one hand I can understand the benefits of having such a beachhead -- proximity to resupply from Britain being the first and most obvious point. I can also understand why the Allies would want to keep up the threat of such an amphibious invasion -- to keep Nazi attention and resources focused in the north.

But the Allies had already secured much of southern Italy, and was at the time of D-Day making fairly rapid progress northward (if I recall correctly, Allied forces had reached Rome only two days before D-Day went ahead). Sure, after that point the Italian campaign bogged down, but that could just as easily be blamed on Allied troops being diverted to support the major campaign in Normandy.

There's also Operation Dragoon to consider, a smaller but just as successful Allied amphibious assault pushing north through the beaches of southern France. That took place only two months after D-Day and was remarkably successful. Even better, it didn't involved going head-to-head against the Atlantic Wall.

I have no doubt others will have already analyzed the cost-benefits involved, but strategically, an Allied push from the south through Italy just seems to make more sense to me. If you brought the Overlord forces to bear on the Mediterranean, you could launch multiple beachheads in northern Italy (like the abortive Anzio landing in Operation Shingle), southern France (Operation Dragoon, as above), and possibly even the oil-producing Balkans (Churchill's preferred strategy).

Such a strategy might have also given U.S. and Britain the chance to push through and occupy Eastern Europe, gaining additional leverage in the face of the Soviet advance. It was already clear that our alliance with them was one of convenience, and would not last long (at all) once the war was won.

Perhaps I'm just grotesquely misinformed, but even if that's the case I'd love to hear where I went wrong. And if not... well, here's a free ATL in case anyone wants to adopt it.
 
I've been wondering about this for a while, but never really knew the right way to go about asking it.

Why did the Allied military command decide on an amphibious invasion of Europe through the northern French beachhead?

Now, on the one hand I can understand the benefits of having such a beachhead -- proximity to resupply from Britain being the first and most obvious point. I can also understand why the Allies would want to keep up the threat of such an amphibious invasion -- to keep Nazi attention and resources focused in the north.

But the Allies had already secured much of southern Italy, and was at the time of D-Day making fairly rapid progress northward (if I recall correctly, Allied forces had reached Rome only two days before D-Day went ahead). Sure, after that point the Italian campaign bogged down, but that could just as easily be blamed on Allied troops being diverted to support the major campaign in Normandy.

There's also Operation Dragoon to consider, a smaller but just as successful Allied amphibious assault pushing north through the beaches of southern France. That took place only two months after D-Day and was remarkably successful. Even better, it didn't involved going head-to-head against the Atlantic Wall.

I have no doubt others will have already analyzed the cost-benefits involved, but strategically, an Allied push from the south through Italy just seems to make more sense to me. If you brought the Overlord forces to bear on the Mediterranean, you could launch multiple beachheads in northern Italy (like the abortive Anzio landing in Operation Shingle), southern France (Operation Dragoon, as above), and possibly even the oil-producing Balkans (Churchill's preferred strategy).

Such a strategy might have also given U.S. and Britain the chance to push through and occupy Eastern Europe, gaining additional leverage in the face of the Soviet advance. It was already clear that our alliance with them was one of convenience, and would not last long (at all) once the war was won.

Perhaps I'm just grotesquely misinformed, but even if that's the case I'd love to hear where I went wrong. And if not... well, here's a free ATL in case anyone wants to adopt it.
South Italy means pushing through the Alps, and the Apennines. Southern France, and here I'm not to sure, means limited harbours and a worse logistical situation. Harder to get constant air cover.
 

I kinda agree with you brother, but do note that, on this site, there are so many people with an almost religious fixation on the need to land in northern France in '44, with all other operations subservient to that goal, that you're not gonna a lot of positive responses.

That said, there are some drawbacks to the southern strategy:

- in Italy, if the initial approach (when the government changed sides) is botched, than it becomes somewhat of a defender's paradise
- southern France has the problem of having to advance up the Rhone valley (and not insufficient port capacity)
- in Greece, again if you fail to break out early, you face the problem of terrain
- in all cases, the point of advance is further from the airfields and ports of England
- lastly, the Atlantic wall wasn't so much of a problem, as that was breached pretty much on Day1, the problem was the bocage were the German panzer divisions held up the advance

IMO, an invasion of Sardinia&Corsica (instead of Sicily), followed by a vigorous deployment in northern Italy once it switched sides would have secured the Alpine line for the allies before the Germans could react in force. The Aegean Islands could have also been secured during the Italian surrender pretty easily if Rhodes had also been an objective, which would have allowed a landing in northern Greece later, perhaps coupled with a change of sides by Bulgaria & Romania.

You can then land in northern France in late '44, once most German units have been redeployed east, and you would probably reach the Rhine around the same date as OTL.
 
South Italy means pushing through the Alps, and the Apennines. Southern France, and here I'm not to sure, means limited harbours and a worse logistical situation. Harder to get constant air cover.

Precisely. In WW1 Italy found itself fighting up the vertical side of cliffs to engage the Austro-Hungarians. Fighting through mountains is very difficult - its why no one has bothered invading the Swiss for centuries (that and the renown of their combat troops). Tanks don't work well in mountains.

France and Low-lands are flat. Perfect for Blitzkrieg but also perfect for a lightning invasion.

Also Italy was far too far away to supply. Resources could take days to cross from the UK through the Med, rather than a short hop across the Channel in hours.

Some argue the Italian campaign wasted resources and Overlord (or similar) could have been acted on earlier (I know the US Generals weren't so keen on Churchill's 'soft underbelly' idea, suggesting it was motivated by Imperialism).

But in summary - invasions through France was the only logistical reality given the situation.
 
The Wallies needed to put their full strength ashore and keep them ashore for a prolonged campaign. All other theaters due to the limitations of terrain, logistics and shipping are always going to be secondary to the big push in France. 20 divisions fighting in Italy and/or 10 in the Balkans ( a guesstimate:)) aren't going to take much pressure of the Russian front let alone win the war against Germany. Only the 70+ Allied divisions in Northern France could achieve this. A key reason for the invasion of Italy was Stalin screaming for a second front from 1941 inwards. It was never meant to be the main Allies effort regardless of how much Churchill want it to be.
 
The other thing to remember is it takes years to plan a really big invasion, for overlord planning arguably started in 1941 and Britain and the US committed to the invasion early 1943. Why northern France?
Air cover from the UK plus suitable beaches plus close to British and American supplies.

By the time May 1944 rolled round the political and logistical momentum was unstoppable. Trying to divert the resources to the Med would delay the invasion probably until 1945.

Anvil by the way is a good example, originally intended to land at the same time as the Normandy assault it was delayed because of shipping and landing craft until it was almost pointless. However the plans, politics and resources were in place so it went ahead.
 
I've gamed this out several times, and observed many others. NW France is simply the easiest route under the historical circumstance of 1941-1944. It is possible to put more weight on one of the other routes, ie: a early 1944 Anvil operation; but the position of the massive industrial, maritime, and air base of the UK makes a large scale attack in the NW a no brainer. Even when another route is sucesfull adding in the NW route makes for even more sucess.

Once ashore the logic is even more unassailable from the PoV of 1941-44. The relatively flat, dry, and partially forested terrain between the coast and the Ruhr or other industrial zones of Germany is the easiest and shortest route.

Eight hundred kilometers of good terrain from the excellent Atlantic ports of Normandy, Brittainy, or the Biscay coast to the Ruhr, six hundred from the Calais region; vs well over 1200 km from other coasts that cross mountains and are less well served by ports and railroads or barge canals.

Take the UK out of the equation and the relative efficiency of various routes changes, tho the short span of the western Europe routes are still attractive.
 
Such a strategy might have also given U.S. and Britain the chance to push through and occupy Eastern Europe, gaining additional leverage in the face of the Soviet advance. It was already clear that our alliance with them was one of convenience, and would not last long (at all) once the war was won.

....

There is a assumption here that a attack through south Europe could have gone as easily as the historical attack in NW Europe. Aside from the mountains there is the problem of far less port capacity, and a far less developed auto and rail road system. A Allied Army group of 1944 required approx 900 tons per day per division HQ to supply all the combat units, corps & army overhead, and tactical air bases, in sustained offensive action. More in the winter. It was also invariablly necessary to feed and otherwise supply the civilian populations in Europes liberated territories for many months. That increased the demand on the ports and transport. Industrial development in the Balkans had been less dense or more concentrated in specific areas. The NW portion of Europe had become the largest & densist concentration of industrial transportation on the globe.

Many of the Allied problems in African and southern Italy, or the steppes of the east derived from the far less well developed transportation.
 
Progress up Italy was anything but rapid. After landing in 43, it took them the rest of the war to reach the Northern Italian border. Compare that to the rate of advance from Normandy, from the beaches to Elbe in under a year. The Italian campaign had already bogged down before Rome fell. The fighting along the Gothic Line was amongst the worst the Western Allies went through in Europe. Hurtgenwald is the only battle that I can think of that comes close to the meatgrinder at Cassino.

Italy is worse terrain than France, it's a narrower front, the Germans are well led, and they're fighting a type of war at which they're rather good. What's more, even if you do somehow liberate all of Italy, so what? You're now facing the Alps, you haven't done much damage to Germany (all you've done is liberate Italian land), and you've probably taken a lot of losses.

Now, I'll admit that prospects are a bit better if Mark Clark doesn't decide to go for Rome instead of cutting of the Germans. Even in that case though, you're left facing the Alps, which will slow progress to a crawl.

The Italian alternative is not a way to liberate Europe. The Italian campaign has a purpose, it serves to blood Allied troops, draw German forces away, and help knock Italy out of the war. Using it as a way to strike into Germany itself is not a good idea (though a bomber offensive would be possible).

Southern France leaves you in the same situation as Northern France. Only, you have to take Northern France. And you're further from home. And you have further to go. At the end of the day, you may as well land in the North.
 
Wasn't a big reason for D-Day that Stalin demanded the Allies created a big second front on the West to help relieve his troops advancement? Also that of the Free French under De Gaulle?

Invading France did that better then they could have in Italy, where like others mentioned the terrain is much harder and bottlenecked.

Also an important thing to add to the reason for D-Day i think: Paris.

Paris was a big iconic place the Nazis had taken away. If they managed to get it back, that would be a huge, decisive morale and prestige boost for the Allied cause. Rome wasn't in any case, maybe Milan but that was far away. The other one was Berlin of course and Warsaw(Prague?) for the Soviets.
 
Rome was a big achievement, but it was somewhat dampened by Italy already surrendering, the Italian Campaign so far being a bloody meat grinder, Clark ballsing up an entire campaign just for his ego, and D-Day stealing the spotlight.
 
The logistics angle was huge. There's a string of big ports all along the Channel/North Sea coast all the way from St Lo to Hamburg, and at least as far as Antwerp they're easily accessible through coastal lowlands and within range of tactical air cover from British bases. Resupply is always a major limiting factor for any major offensive, even for the Wallies who had far more materiel resources and a much more well-equipped logistics train than the Germans or Soviets, and shipping is by far the most efficient way to move supplies in large quantities.
 

U.S David

Banned
Because you can use all of Great Britian as a luanch pad, in your idea they would have to ship everythig to North Africa and Italy.

But I agree with you, we should have invaded the Balkans to prevent the Soviets from taking it.
 
The reason why northern France was chosen was, IIRC, primarily the Worlds largest and unsinkable Aircraft Carrier permanently parked forty miles off the coast.
 
Because you can use all of Great Britian as a luanch pad, in your idea they would have to ship everythig to North Africa and Italy.

But I agree with you, we should have invaded the Balkans to prevent the Soviets from taking it.

Stalin would have been more than happy that you would gave him a larger part of Germany.

People who question Overlord and argue for the southern strategy have no understanding of logistics.
 
Clark was a egocentric pillock whose reaction to the news of Overlord was disappointment that the capture of Rome had been knocked off the front pages. He even talked about firing on any 8th Army unit that looked as if it was heading towards Rome. Total idiot. :mad:
 

U.S David

Banned
Stalin would have been more than happy that you would gave him a larger part of Germany.

People who question Overlord and argue for the southern strategy have no understanding of logistics.

I'm not saying Overlord was a bad idea, I would have wanted it. But would it not be better if we also invaded Yulglosvia and Greece? And then move into Hungry or Bulgria. Would it not be better for these countries not to be communist?
 
I'm not saying Overlord was a bad idea, I would have wanted it. But would it not be better if we also invaded Yulglosvia and Greece? And then move into Hungry or Bulgria. Would it not be better for these countries not to be communist?

Better, possibly. Possible, arguably not. Given the situation in Yugoslavia it is not even sure Allied troops will be allowed to pass through the territory.
 
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