What would the US look like if Canda, British, Caribbean, Moskito Coast & Belize Joined it

[VaultJumper]

lets try to stay away from how is this possible(but if that is what you want to do I'll go with it) and agree that it probably requires pods to make the American Army and Navy stronger, the British crueler, more incompetent, weaker, over extended, and more willing to give up in the right circumstance. What I want to know is how it would be the development of this us.

p.s. I also forgot to throw in the Mosquito Coast

p.s. There are two other scenarios one is if Great Britain took all of France's Caribbean holdings as well Canada in the Seven's years war, and I am well aware that pod's required. The third option is like option two but GB took Cuba off from Spain as well Florida. these scenarios could also be a pod required to have the US is luckier, has more resources while the opposite being true for GB,

 

[Lusitania]

We just had several huge discussions about this. The answer would depend on when they joined. Please lookup the monthly US obsession thread with US taking over Canada.

Lastly please Leave Canada alone. The US has enough problems and we can’t expect Canada to solve them all. We busy solving our own.

 

[VaultJumper]

We just had several huge discussions about this. The answer would depend on when they joined. Please lookup the monthly US obsession thread with US taking over Canada.

Lastly please Leave Canada alone. The US has enough problems and we can’t expect Canada to solve them all. We busy solving our own.

1 this isn't just about Canada this about British new world colonies, and I don't find invading Canada benefits anybody. So I'm not focusing on Canada on this one plus I think the Caribbean Colonies would have a bigger impact then Canada, so Canada is just the tasty appetizer.

2 Canada has similar problems to the United States just politer and more French while the United States are more orange and bombastic it's a nasty habit.

3 Always good to see on a post but you don't have to click on my post. Although it would cause an enteral sorrow if you didn't because you have been a treasure trove of knowledge and learning for me.

4 I know there's lot of American focus right now, but I am gathering information for a timeline and found this post a good way to learn and get new idea's I wouldn't have thought up myself and to make sure my ideas are up to snuff.

5 just a heads up I edited the post.

 

[Lusitania]

But the part about when it happens greatly influences how the Greater US is going to be. I am sorry but the two can not be separated.

Are we talking about where all of British colonies rebel and then to fight off possible British attack unite to form a single country?

Or we talking about where Quebec joins 13 colonies against the British and then during war of 1812 the rest of British North America either joins or is conquered?

Or we talking not about US during the 1830s or 1860s goes to war with Britain and captures British North America?

Each of these scenarios involves a different US and a different set dynamics between states and the federal government.

So a blanket statement of how it would be is not feasible to make a proper determination on how life would be like. Would slavery still exists? Would America then go on to conquer Spanish speaking North America? Would the French still hold on to Haiti so Napoleon never sells French Louisiana?

See all of these factors have to be determined. So as the author of this thread please look up a scenario that could of led to British being kicked out of North America. Then sketch out how that country evolved and how politics played out. Now we can discuss things properly.

Thanks
Lusitania

 

[VaultJumper]

But the part about when it happens greatly influences how the Greater US is going to be. I am sorry but the two can not be separated.

Are we talking about where all of British colonies rebel and then to fight off possible British attack unite to form a single country?

Or we talking about where Quebec joins 13 colonies against the British and then during war of 1812 the rest of British North America either joins or is conquered?

Or we talking not about US during the 1830s or 1860s goes to war with Britain and captures British North America?

Each of these scenarios involves a different US and a different set dynamics between states and the federal government.

So a blanket statement of how it would be is not feasible to make a proper determination on how life would be like. Would slavery still exists? Would America then go on to conquer Spanish speaking North America? Would the French still hold on to Haiti so Napoleon never sells French Louisiana?

See all of these factors have to be determined. So as the author of this thread please look up a scenario that could of led to British being kicked out of North America. Then sketch out how that country evolved and how politics played out. Now we can discuss things properly.

Thanks
Lusitania

1 your right I messed I probably shouldn't post when I have 4 hours of sleep.

2 Joining the American revolution

 

[Lusitania]

1 your right I messed I probably shouldn't post when I have 4 hours of sleep.

2 Joining the American revolution

Ok if that case then we should review what the implications of Quebec as part of the US thread for a starter. The issue will be that the number of slaves will increase and that have mJor impact on the US.

When you have some rest, then sketch out the number of colonies that revolt.

 

[VaultJumper]

Ok if that case then we should review what the implications of Quebec as part of the US thread for a starter. The issue will be that the number of slaves will increase and that have mJor impact on the US.

When you have some rest, then sketch out the number of colonies that revolt.

Most of the Caribbean colonies were heavily tied to the 13 colonies and were very similar to the future Dixie states and they had local Representative assemblies, I also remember reading somewhere that their were revolutionary sympathies in most of the British Carribean so I could all of them joining if the rest of Americans can protect them from slave revolts, British reprisals, or other European powers otherwise they would stay loyal to GB like our TL. Although The Americans might be able to do this if Bermuda joins them which is possible because they are economically tied to the American colonies and are similar to Virginia culturally but the Americans would have be able to hold it. I may be over emphasizing the strategic importance of Bermuda because the British Navy could do South to the Azores owned by Portugal a British ally or North through the Iceland way but I imagine it would be significantly harder to supply navel and land forces with out Bermuda. I need to do more research on Belize, the Mosquito Coast and British Guiana on weather not they would be willing or able to join.

 

[Lusitania]

The POD of the TL has to be the destruction of the RN. Without that nothing past the 13 colonies will revolt. You cannot get Halifax and new foundland. Bermuda and Carribean be unable to maintain a rebellion. But remember the fall of the RN will lead to the resurgence of France and Spain two of Britain main rivals who will be on the lookout for conquest especially the Carribean. Therefore I do not see how the British Carribean would survive. You might even see France wishing to retake New France.

We cannot say the RN fights bad. It was huge, larger than all the others together. Plus their merchant navy was enormous. I want to entertain your idea but do not know how it can be achieved, not in one fell swoop.

 

[VaultJumper]

The POD of the TL has to be the destruction of the RN. Without that nothing past the 13 colonies will revolt. You cannot get Halifax and new foundland. Bermuda and Carribean be unable to maintain a rebellion. But remember the fall of the RN will lead to the resurgence of France and Spain two of Britain main rivals who will be on the lookout for conquest especially the Carribean. Therefore I do not see how the British Carribean would survive. You might even see France wishing to retake New France.

We cannot say the RN fights bad. It was huge, larger than all the others together. Plus their merchant navy was enormous. I want to entertain your idea but do not know how it can be achieved, not in one fell swoop.

I know I am just trying to expedite the processes to get to the effects. I do think the destruction of the RN would have to happen past 1763 because other wise Canada can't join the AR and we don't have to destroy or weaken all of the RN just the part the operates in the New World. Maybe a storm was stronger then OTL and destroyed RN ship. the only way I can see of weakening the RN past 1763 without a major pod is through bad luck, bad planing, and stupidity granted those 3 things are powerful forces in world history. But I don't think RN would be that bad at planing or that stupid when it comes to storms although I could be wrong and people could be that unlucky and storms that strong. I also don't think just weakening the RN would be enough, The Continental Navy (CN) would have to be stronger too that part I have some Ideas on but would like to hear some other people's. One more Idea for weakening the RN is over extending it by having GB take all of the French Caribbean and maybe Cuba (I haven't decide what to with Louisiana yet but I am thinking on keeping it with spain aftr the 7 years war) but that would require at least two things GB doing better in the 7 years war the Braddock expedition not failing so hard and not loosing Menorca for example and For William Pitt the Elder and Newcastle to still be in power would require King George the Second to have his heart aneurysm at least a year later because king George the Third hated Pitt's and Newcastle's Guts also maybe a longer war especially if you want Cuba. This does several thing concrete things to benefit the colonial side it further bankrupts GB which would make GB raise more taxes everyones favorite thing, it would put RN ships in the path of several more hurricanes, it cause a glut of sugar to happen the British market thus raising discontent with the sugar plantation owners in Caribbean, also GB would have to occupy french speaking Islands thus extending the Royal Army. Moving on to more contingent event that could happen the bigger amount fear and resentment in Europe could cause more people to seek to be American privateers and give more support to AR, maybe in the occupation the French speaking islands GB turns to oppressive means to keep control and throw in a lack a Guy Carleton and Quebec act you could have a more sympathetic Canada to it's Southern neighbors, Finally it would give GB and America more bargaining chips to negotiate with in the Treaty of pairs

 

[VaultJumper]

The POD of the TL has to be the destruction of the RN. Without that nothing past the 13 colonies will revolt. You cannot get Halifax and new foundland. Bermuda and Carribean be unable to maintain a rebellion. But remember the fall of the RN will lead to the resurgence of France and Spain two of Britain main rivals who will be on the lookout for conquest especially the Carribean. Therefore I do not see how the British Carribean would survive. You might even see France wishing to retake New France.

We cannot say the RN fights bad. It was huge, larger than all the others together. Plus their merchant navy was enormous. I want to entertain your idea but do not know how it can be achieved, not in one fell swoop.

I also forgot about to mention with GB going maybe they would fail to pay troops and sailors cause to mutiny, go rouge, or join the Rebels and/or start recruiting from provincial manpower or rely more on militias to cut costs and maybe they would have sympathies for their homes but I doubt GB would do the later because they were highly dismissive of colonials in the military. Another I forgot to mention is that GB might start deportations in the french speaking islands like they did do the Acadians and other trouble makers and they might start persecuting Catholics if they give the colonial government trouble. so what do you think of the pod to weaken the RN and try to strengthen the colonials or would it be better to just have a storm wipe out a portion of the RN. Do you know of another way to weaken the RN or strengthen the CN? there are some wars in India after 1763 but I don't think there is much else to effect the RN after 1763.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Guyana was not a part of the British Empire during the revolution. With regards to that you're late for about 40 years or so.

 

[VaultJumper]

Guyana was not a part of the British Empire during the revolution. With regards to that you're late for about 40 years or so.

thanks but I need to edit my title now because I did some research that it was over 60% British by 1760 it was sorta of a Texas situation.

 

[Lusitania]

My major concern about any tL where the British navy not have control of the seas is that balance of power would shift to British enemies which could be bad for British colonies including the 13 colonies. France was only 13 colonies friend as long as it served the purpose of weakening the British. If British seriously weakened to point they not able to protect their colonies then everything is fair game. France night make a play for all of Canada. Spain and Dutch might make play against southern colonies and Carribean.

 

[VaultJumper]

My major concern about any tL where the British navy not have control of the seas is that balance of power would shift to British enemies which could be bad for British colonies including the 13 colonies. France was only 13 colonies friend as long as it served the purpose of weakening the British. If British seriously weakened to point they not able to protect their colonies then everything is fair game. France night make a play for all of Canada. Spain and Dutch might make play against southern colonies and Carribean.

agreed that is also why you have to strengthen the continental navy and army so that they can defend their new country from European Powers. that is why I like Britain taking over the French Caribbean colonies because it would cause resentment in so many places so. 1 in the Caribbean because of the sugar glut and the transition to British rule. 2 It is also going to cause greater problems in the mainland colonies because there will be less trading partners to get around GB's taxes and mercantile polices. Not mention those things would be harsher and there's no telling what other intolerable acts would be 3 would be how it would affect Canada would be entirely on what policy GB chooses to pursue with it's new French holdings it could very well have a relationship like it had with Canada but GB could also go do the opposite and go for more deportations in the islands or even in Canada, also GB could be more willing to go down anti-catholic policies if and let's say Guy Carleton isn't given the governorship and Quebec act. I think with the Caribbean joining the American Revolution the islands would probably try to seize the ships, forts and armories on their islands but I think they would probably be the first targets GB looks to get back but before then the islands could fund, and send supplies and manpower to the Continental Navy and Army and take out portion of the RN. In the Original colonies maybe there is greater amount of unrest causing the southern colonies to be more invested the revolution and not to be as reluctant to join and be more willing to help (looking at you Georgia and South Carolina) and take Florida out of the equation. Finally moving to Canada if Quebec joins that allows Nova Scotia to join giving them access to more men, ships and supplies and it help secure the northern front maybe allowing them to go after Labrador and Rupert's land.

 

[Lusitania]

Ok per previous posts at time of ARW the British Navy be too powerful. Therefore it not be in 13 colonies best interest that the British be too weak. What can happen would be that Quebec join the revolt and the 14 colonies achieve independence from Britain.

Halifax (Nova Scotia) forget British control the seas and population too small to defeat the British.

New foundland communities too scattered. Plus control of seas mean British can attack any enclaves that declare independence.

Carribean to weak and British control seas.

During constitution talks more power to states due to states like Quebec wanting to protect their religion and language. (If you have issues with this please read the multi page “Quebec join ARW” thread). Can’t be any other way. As a compromise to the states having more power and state militias the federal government gets power and funding to properly build and maintain a US navy.

Majority of the British loyalist move to South Africa. (Which British take from Dutch during war).

From 1783-1810 uS expand westward to Mississippi. During Napoleónic wars British navy attacks on American ships result in doubling of Ametican navy and US merchant fleet

War of 1812 which coincides with continuing Napoleonic wars results in US british ships battling out in Atlantic. US navy and marines attack and capture briefs bases in North America including Halifax, st John, Bermuda And Carribean islands and other ports. Forcing British to launch all ships from Europe

Citizens of captured islands and ports petition to join USA.

Peace treaty grants all British colonies to USA.

That could work for it assures USA has the resources and military might to both seaize and protect the new USA territories.

But this be a totally different USA with potential for 3-4 more slave owning states from Carribean while only picking up two states in north.

 

[Wendell]

Canada I get. The other areas? Not so much.

 

[Lusitania]

Canada I get. The other areas? Not so much.

The thread was for US to get all of British North America colonies. I put forth a reasonable way that could be done.

 

[Wendell]

The thread was for US to get all of British North America colonies. I put forth a reasonable way that could be done.

I am aware of that, but it seems unlikely for the U.S. to have Miskitania and Belize without Central Amerixa.

 

[Lusitania]

I am aware of that, but it seems unlikely for the U.S. to have Miskitania and Belize without Central Amerixa.

I was quoting the US capture all British colonies / outposts of Britain as they existed in 1812-1815.

If we accept my proposal on how USA gets all of the British Atlantic colonies (they still have BC). Then we can discuss the number of states and territories. What the US will do with those territories and if they increase it. Remember that this be a different US with more state powers multiple French speaking states and weaker federal government. The difference is stronger navy and merchant fleet.

Without Britain how would USA act? Would they be more beligerante towards first Spain then Spanish speaking countries? Would France still be best buddies or look at USA as an adversary? How would relations with Britain be? Remember they biggest investor in US commerce and industrialization. So if things not as cozy would that impact American industry?

What we are not talking about is the same USA but bigger. We talking about a different USA. Be they better or worse.

 

[VaultJumper]

Ok per previous posts at time of ARW the British Navy be too powerful. Therefore it not be in 13 colonies best interest that the British be too weak. What can happen would be that Quebec join the revolt and the 14 colonies achieve independence from Britain.

Halifax (Nova Scotia) forget British control the seas and population too small to defeat the British.

New foundland communities too scattered. Plus control of seas mean British can attack any enclaves that declare independence.

Carribean to weak and British control seas.

During constitution talks more power to states due to states like Quebec wanting to protect their religion and language. (If you have issues with this please read the multi page “Quebec join ARW” thread). Can’t be any other way. As a compromise to the states having more power and state militias the federal government gets power and funding to properly build and maintain a US navy.

Majority of the British loyalist move to South Africa. (Which British take from Dutch during war).

From 1783-1810 uS expand westward to Mississippi. During Napoleónic wars British navy attacks on American ships result in doubling of Ametican navy and US merchant fleet

War of 1812 which coincides with continuing Napoleonic wars results in US british ships battling out in Atlantic. US navy and marines attack and capture briefs bases in North America including Halifax, st John, Bermuda And Carribean islands and other ports. Forcing British to launch all ships from Europe

Citizens of captured islands and ports petition to join USA.

Peace treaty grants all British colonies to USA.

That could work for it assures USA has the resources and military might to both seaize and protect the new USA territories.

But this be a totally different USA with potential for 3-4 more slave owning states from Carribean while only picking up two states in north.

So what happens to Florida does go back to Spain then joins the US when Andrew Jackson does his shtick?

What about the Falklands and The south Georgia and Sandwich Islands if the US was strong enough to take Newfoundland, Bermuda, and GB Caribbean Holdings in 1812 I could see them being interested in removing a European power entirely from the new world seaboard.

I like the idea of of a two part revolution. Say the Caribbean colonies do join but the revolutionaries are forced to flee to the main land and are looking for a chance to reclaim their homes.

So 15,000 people of a 20,000 population is to little? Also Nova Scotia would now have a land connection for supplies and reinforcements to come. They wouldn't be able to keep or Take Halifax but they probably would be able to pull of guerilla warfare and stop the red coats from leaving Halifax. I don't think Nova Scotia would be split up if it Joined the Union.

I don't think the Articles of confederation would change much.Although I agree with the states having more power probably a longer bill of rights with part protecting language specifically, but what other changes do you think would happen the constitutions? I do think if Marshall court would probably make the same decisions it did OTL even with the extra Judges from Francophone States or the Caribean latter on because most of the Marshall's courts decisions were unanimous or had 1 dissenter. the pendulum wouldn't be swung that much to the states if the militias were stronger because that's pretty much how the US operated its army OTL and in OTL the congress underfunded the federal military because they didn' when they needed to bulk up the Federal army they would just induct state militias in the command structure.

So what states would Newfound Land and Labrador go to and wouldn't Quebec be willing/want to Split it's self up to have more representation in the Senate?

Bermuda would probably go to Virginia because of the close ties. The Bahamas to south Carolina for similar reasons. the Lesser Antilles probably get lumped together. Belize, Jamaica, the Mosquito coast, and what islands that are south of Cuba but aren't of the lesser Antilles are put together and are probably split apart at a latter date.

So what happens to the Guiana and Suriname area most of the Europeans there are of British decent would the dutch be willing to sell to the US or the us takes them in 1812 because GB has control over it and then pays some money to the dutch and french for their portion of the area?

small question will be using the pod of GB taking the French Caribbean or no. I am fine either way.

Haiti will be interesting no matter what because your either having a freed slave republic like OTL which would be hated by the slave holding states maybe causing an intervention and America getting it's ass in quagmire or if we go the my pod suggestion Haiti not to mention a ton of Caribbean islands would be exposed to revolutionary ideas when they were developing imagine the Maroons getting their hands on Thomas Paine's Common Sense which was published in French and I could imagine revolutionaries trying to spread it around to other colonies.

the Slave state Free State balance would be interesting with the Francophones thrown in because early on they are more of their interests in common with the slave states but as they industrialize they would probably align themselves more with the free states. I defiantly see the Francophone states playing both sides. The slave states would also have more ways to expand and so would the free states so maybe the civil gets delayed a little bit maybe to the late 1860's or early 1870's but I good still happening in the early 1860's or late 1850's depending on who gets elected. The civil would still happen because neither side would be dominate as they can still keep the balance in the senate.

Immigration would be interesting to because now the Irish would have multiple friendly areas north of new England to go to with the English limiting them, and would the Italians go to Quebec to because of the the Latin language and Catholic faith? I don't know about the Germans though.