What would the Confederacy be like today if it won its' independece in the American Civil War?

Would the Confederacy become a rich and strong country, would it become a rather poor country similar to Brazil and Jamaica or would it go some other path entirely? Since its' key economic and demographic elements were the same as in the second mentioned countries (plantation economy with a large number of Blacks) I personally guess the latter would be the most likely, but I could maybe be wrong here.
 
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dcharles

Banned
There's a million ideas about this. Seems like you're a new member. Just search for some different timelines about it. @KingSweden24 's Cinco de Mayo is a good one though. You'll probably like it. It's hard not to.
 
There's a million ideas about this. Seems like you're a new member. Just search for some different timelines about it. @KingSweden24 's Cinco de Mayo is a good one though. You'll probably like it. It's hard not to.
Yeah, no offense nor disencouragement to a new member, but this topic of a surviving CSA has been talked about to death in here, there are even some active threads about this subject, just search for the key words "Confederacy" and "victory" or "CSA" and "survival", and enable "search titles only".
 
CSA can go with many ways. On this site is surely tons of TLs and threads about surviving CSA.
 
Would the Confederacy become a rich and strong country, would it become a rather poor country similar to Brazil and Jamaica or would it go some other path entirely? Since its' key economic and demographic elements were the same as in the second mentioned countries (plantation economy with a large number of Blacks) I personally guess the latter would be the most likely, but I could maybe be wrong here.
There’s already a ton of tls about this but to put it mildly the csa would likely become a failed state
 
Hardly a power anywhere like OTL USA. I mean, there's lots of scenarios of how the CSA could evolve, but conditions for it to be a major power simply weren't there. From there, it can go many ways, a third world country, a failed state, not anymore a single country, etc, etc, etc
 
It would be an enduring federal constitutional republic defined by an agro-industrial complex. Southern civilization would maintain the economic modernization and social progressivism of the antebellum era compatible with mass racialized chattel slavery. The slave himself would be subjected to industrial discipline/incentive, being an expensive cog in the organizationally-complex plantation machinery. Agriculture and land/bondspeople would remain the leading occupation and source of wealth, but mining and manufacturing (such as that done by the War Department) would be healthy and an ever-increasing area of new thought and effort. Lumber also, perhaps. Railroads would do much to promote Southern nationalism, improved cultivation/technology, industry, managerial control, mechanical trades, etc., at the expense of local attachment and isolation from markets and allegiance to the 'old Union'. The (Whiggish) crusade for "scientific agriculture" to adequately-respond to consumer demand and soil-depletion, cotton-mills for poor white employment, common schools for literacy, State asylums for the insane and sick, "direct trade" with Continental Europe via agencies seeking investment and immigration, and general statewide reform would continue. Higher education, both denominational and public, for both men and women would consume much general concern, alongside agricultural journals/conventions/associations/fairs. Evangelistic paternalism and contribution to the material welfare of the civilized world would be the norm in regard to "peculiar institution" apologetics.

It would succeed in some areas and fail in others. I'd place the greatest faith in the Army officer and sugar-planter in regard to statesmanship.

The frost-free island of Cuba would be quite desirable to Louisiana's sugar interest. West Texas and Arizona are likely to be the final cotton-frontier for cheap shipment to Guaymas, and thence to China/India, unless the Panama/Nicaragua canal is completed.
 
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Failed state most likely. If it wasn’t smart enough, it probably tries its hand at conquering the Caribbean but fails due to their lack of industry and focus on agriculture and going up against other European powers (Besides Spain, who was in a bad spot in the 19th century, but even then-). Speaking of which, becomes a pariah had it continued slavery into the 20th century.
 
Likely quite different than people imagine. People tend to think it would slavish follow the pattern of OTL American South just worse.

My thoughts:

Slavery would last longer than people suspect, at very least until 1890ties but I suspect that 1910 would likely be around where it would abolished.

It would receive more emigration than OTL American South. In OTL the post-WarSouth was dominated by power struggle between Washington and the states, and any immigrants was seen as weakening local power base. In the struggle between Richmond and the states, Richmond are far weaker than Washington, and immigrants are not an institutional threat. In fact immigrants will serve to weaken the free lower classes.

I expect Texas to leave, simply because its economy and interest are too different from the other states, I expect a small scale civil over it, the rest of the states will stay in the Confederation.

Racial mixing will stay more common and legal, and CSA will keep ”Mulattos“ around as a separate group with greater privileges than other African Americans.

It will be far poorer likely with a GDP per capita more similar to a Latin American country than USA and Canada.

It won’t take part in foreign conflicts, there’s no reason to expand slavery without the North and honestly the Southern elite are not willing to pay for wars.
 
Slavery would last longer than people suspect, at very least until 1890ties but I suspect that 1910 would likely be around where it would abolished.

Agree. It is just far too optimistic that slavery would had been abolished in 10 - 15 or even in 20 years after the war. Slavery was one of major reasons to secession and CSA won't give up whole system that easily. So I can't really see abolition being possible before 1900.

It would receive more emigration than OTL American South. In OTL the post-WarSouth was dominated by power struggle between Washington and the states, and any immigrants was seen as weakening local power base. In the struggle between Richmond and the states, Richmond are far weaker than Washington, and immigrants are not an institutional threat. In fact immigrants will serve to weaken the free lower classes.

Would CSA be that attractive for immigration since it would be much poorer. And not sure if local elites are so happy with immigration. But perhaps after abolition of slavery CSA might be fine at least with Anglo immigrants since it would help keep white majority.

I expect Texas to leave, simply because its economy and interest are too different from the other states, I expect a small scale civil over it, the rest of the states will stay in the Confederation.

Agree. And probably Virginia and Kentucky are too watching secession since they are not that greatly fine with slavery.

Racial mixing will stay more common and legal, and CSA will keep ”Mulattos“ around as a separate group with greater privileges than other African Americans.

Possible.

It will be far poorer likely with a GDP per capita more similar to a Latin American country than USA and Canada.

Agree. Even if CSA would industrialise in 1890's/early 20th century it would be behind of USA and European great powers.

It won’t take part in foreign conflicts, there’s no reason to expand slavery without the North and honestly the Southern elite are not willing to pay for wars.

Agree. CSA has not really good option with expansion. Perhaps Northern Mexico and Cuba are possible but not that easy either. USA and Britain are not going to be happy with expansion. And CSA indeed hardly is going to participate with foreign wars. Actually I don't even see there being more than one or two other wars with USA. They hardly remain as eternal enemies like on TL-191.

And CSA and USA hardly are going to re-unite. And what more time passes that more unlikely it is. They would have developed to their own directions which would make whole idea really hard to see.
 
Re-annexed and reintegrated into the US is it's best case scenario. If it somehow maintains independence into the present best case scenario for it in that instance is being a third world country akin to Brazil with the same societal and economic problems Brazil has.... More realistically it would be a successful Apartheid South Africa.
 
There's too much variables from 1865 to 2024 to predict how a CSA would look like. All predictions about "failed state" and "Brazil in North America" take the Confederate situation in 1865 and ISOT it in the 21st century. It's not how history work. Anything can happen just in the first half of the 20th century, starting with the abolition of slavery, that will radically change the ideological foundations of the CSA and pursue them to follow new economical development schemes. The CSA in 1960 could be anything from Mega Rhodesia to Weirdly-Accented US, or even a Communist country if some conditions play right (like non-white minorities exploiting their relative superior demographic weight compared to a unified US).
 
They very much need the entirety of the Border South (VA, KY, TN, NC, MO) to successfully secede. Having all of the Upper South within their borders, they have the White demographic weight to do whatever they want with their Black population regardless of how the rest of the world feels about it, and the demographic weight to resist any country that would deign to stop them.

Having that I tend to believe, and of course its just a belief, they'd become a modern, industrial nation, and over time populist figures would stoke poor White racial resentment against the Big Planter minority for 1) keeping blacks around, 2) being more concerned with the welfare of their plantations than the welfare of the country, 3) traditionally white sectors of employment being encroached upon by more ambitious planters wanting to industrialize slavery. Then eventually a sort of Populist "Dixiecratic" party would get into power and enact policies that are essentially racist-social democracy for want of a better term. They'd enact broad social, agricultural and economic reforms. They'd expand higher education by opening up land-grant, public agricultural-technical schools for yeoman and poor whites only, enact labor regulations banning blacks from certain sectors of employment, create free healthcare, a minimum wage, ban child labor in the mines, lumber mills and textile factories, create a subsidies-for-yeomen program to promote small-to-medium farms that couldn't historically compete with plantation commercial agriculture, and most importantly they'd end slavery, not out of abolitionist sentiment but out of populist anger, and begin thinking about what to do with the now free black population they don't particularly want.

The idea of mass deportation isn't out of the question, it'd be expensive, lengthy, and involve a fair deal of rebellion against the plan, but the Dixiecrats would be very motivated out of anger and racial resentment, and I don't think Yeoman Reformers would really want Blacks around. If you read Southern agricultural reformer journals from the turn of the century one of the big things, they lament is the presence of Blacks in the South. The other option is just the same kind of apartheid Jim Crowe system, but I think Dixiecrats, shorn of really caring about world opinion and not having the weight of Northern reformers breathing down their necks, would be more likely to follow a deportation scheme. They probably won't succeed in getting every Black out of the country, but their goal would mostly be just to make them an extreme minority such that they can essentially forget about them, so they don't need to.

This might sound fascistic, but I don't think it would be really, I doubt it'd be militarist, revanchist or meet the other qualifications, the Confederacy would still be relatively democratic while this was going on, the Dixiecratic reformers would just be genuinely popular among the voters. Just standard Jacksonian-derived white southern populism mixed with Upper South Whig reformism.
 
Not only have there been a lot of threads on this board, discussion of the (misnamed) American Civil War on this board have also pretty comprehensively established that once the Confederacy starts a war with the rest of the United States, they aren't going to win.

They really seem to have been insane, or thought the northern states would fight a couple of battles and then give up. It doesn't make sense. Though its worth noting that the Confederacy that fired on Fort Sumter were just seven states, and there were fifteen slave states, and a disproportionate amount of the leaders of the actual war effort came from the states that had not signed up before Fort Sumter and who were not involved in the decision to start the war. The war effort was conducted fairly sanely and competently, the decision to fire on Fort Sumter, not so much.

If the rest of the United States decides that the Confederacy is in rebellion, and decides to fight and stick with it until the rebellion is crushed, which is what happened, then the Confederates are fighting the world's leading industrial power with just two factories in 1861, and their opponents can just march armies south and concentrate entirely on their opponents.

The only "Confederate independence" scenario that makes sense is one without any war at all. The seven original states just secede. The POD is that the federal government this times agrees to negotiate, evacuates their posts within the Confederacy, and eventually lets the seven states go; or the Confederates leave the remaining forts alone, and with the Constitution silent on secession the northern states have no justification for war themselves and eventually come around to a negotiated separation.

In this scenario, VIrginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Arkansas do not join the Confederacy, Virginia and Tennessee having considered and rejected the idea before Lincoln's call for volunteers.

Slavery will remain legal in the United States for an embarrassing long time. The only slave state that had a serious abolitionist movement in 1860 was Missouri. There may even be a scenario where the border states industrialize and rely more on paid labor, but though there are not many slaves, slavery remains on the books as legal. IOTL, states keep a ton of ridiculous and outdated laws on their books pretty much forever. There are not only no 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments, there might be a 13th amendment guaranteeing the right of a state to keep slavery legal (such an amendment IOTL passed Congress in 1861 and was ratified by at least one state).

The CSA will survive. It will cover a large territory and will have British support. It will basically be a backwards British protectorate. Eventually Russia will champion some sort of international abolitionist movement, and an embarrassed British government will pressure the CSA and Brazil toward abolition. Slavery could even be abolished in the CSA earlier than in USA. After the adoption of the 13th amendment, the constitutions of both countries will state that any abolition has to happen at the state level. Abolition will be compensated, which pretty much happened every time it was done peacefully, which was everywhere but the USA and Haiti.

Free African-Americans in both the USA and CSA (New Orleans had a sizeable population of them before 1861) will be better off IOTL, the efforts to keep the free Black population at the lowest status possible was really an after effect of the war, as shown by experience in other countries where abolition was done peacefully. There will be alot of people born into slavery after 1861 who will be obviously worse off.

Politically, the states remain much more powerful than IOTL, for obvious reasons. The US Supreme Court may remain at six or seven justices. I'm not sure if the CSA ever establishes a Supreme Court. The Whigs re-emerge as the second party in the CSA, and in the USA remain around, probably as the "Unionists" as a major third party. They would have a base in the border states, and with no disputed 1876 election ITTL, there is no formal or informal basis for the two party duopoly.

The Grant administration obviously doesn't happen, but I don't think the other late nineteenth century presidencies necessarily change. Butterflies start to accumulate and affect the twenty-first century. Unlike in many "South wins the American Civil War" timelines, Woodrow Wilson is not a Confederate president. He was born in Virginia and elected governor of New Jersey. Both states are in the USA ITTL.

The CSA will want to expand south, and they have a good chance of getting Cuba from Spain, either peacefully or through ITTL's exclusion of the Spanish-American War. They are a banana republic, but its not as if Spain is in much better shape, so they can pull it off. Its World War I where the butterflies really come in. The CSA probably is pulled by the British into the war fairly early. But I think the USA remains neutral. This version of the USA is much more anglophobic than the one we got.
 
They really seem to have been insane, or thought the northern states would fight a couple of battles and then give up. It doesn't make sense. Though its worth noting that the Confederacy that fired on Fort Sumter were just seven states, and there were fifteen slave states, and a disproportionate amount of the leaders of the actual war effort came from the states that had not signed up before Fort Sumter and who were not involved in the decision to start the war. The war effort was conducted fairly sanely and competently, the decision to fire on Fort Sumter, not so much.

Well you have Davis’ letters to the fire eaters of SC from November 1860 to look back on for guidance on how he viewed it.

First that they should not seek independence unless all the planting states which he tended to include KY and Missouri in that were all in agreement which they weren’t.

Second that SC and the states that leave would have no protection or support if the North wages economic warfare on them. But, if the North reaches for the sword and wages actual war on them that would unite the South as a unit.

My sense of his letters and you can decide for yourself is he gave at best 1-20 odds of the South winning in November 1860 in any event and later politically he felt the reprovision of forts put in him a no win scenario. Either back down and be crushed politically by his own side in favor of more aggressive figures or go forward and be crushed militarily.
 
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Agree. It is just far too optimistic that slavery would had been abolished in 10 - 15 or even in 20 years after the war. Slavery was one of major reasons to secession and CSA won't give up whole system that easily. So I can't really see abolition being possible before 1900.

Yes, you pretty much need a new generation who haven’t fought in the Civil War in power, which means mid 1890ties is the very earliest, but with the American tradition of electing fossils, I expect 1905-10 will likely be when the post-war generation begins to dominate.

Would CSA be that attractive for immigration since it would be much poorer. And not sure if local elites are so happy with immigration. But perhaps after abolition of slavery CSA might be fine at least with Anglo immigrants since it would help keep white majority.

Pretty much all of Americas got massive amount of European immigration no matter how poor or rich, only areas with climate directly deadly to European or active war zone didn’t get immigration. I think that as a non-Catholic country with a warm climate I could see it being popular with Mediterranean Orthodox people at least in the Deep South, while the Upper South and Texas would be more popular for North European Protestants, Irish Catholics will likely also be a major group for language reasons, a lot of Jews will likely also end up in CSA. Of course it would not be on as massive scale as USA, but just much bigger than OTL American South.

In the Deep South immigrants are likely to mostly end up as a mercantile class and after the abolishment of slavery a new group of seasonal workers will likely also move in. In the Upper South and Texas, they will likely be a mix of industrial workers (mostly the Irish and any Brotish Protestants) and farmers (mostly the German and Scandinavian Protestants)

Agree. And probably Virginia and Kentucky are too watching secession since they are not that greatly fine with slavery.

I don’t expect Kentucky being part of CSA, while Virginia will be home to the central administration and as such stay. Virginia will likely do pretty well and turn into the New York of CSA, it will be the financial center of the entire confederation.

Agree. Even if CSA would industrialise in 1890's/early 20th century it would be behind of USA and European great powers.

CSA will likely mostly stay an agricultural and resource extracting economy, there will be industries but they will be geared to the domestic market and the army.

Agree. CSA has not really good option with expansion. Perhaps Northern Mexico and Cuba are possible but not that easy either. USA and Britain are not going to be happy with expansion. And CSA indeed hardly is going to participate with foreign wars. Actually I don't even see there being more than one or two other wars with USA. They hardly remain as eternal enemies like on TL-191.

Yes, I agree, through I could see CSA join the Great War on the Entente side, while USA and Texas are more likely to stay out (The Germans and Irish are a far more powerful political group without the American South, Germans and Irish are likely able to get a peacenik elected, to say nothing about American socialists being a better position without Dixie) . Of course the Great War may end up quite different. We really need to rethink USA foreign policy to see how it effect the world.

And CSA and USA hardly are going to re-unite. And what more time passes that more unlikely it is. They would have developed to their own directions which would make whole idea really hard to see.

I agree, once split countries rarely rejoin. Also while the whole economic disagreements as the reason for the Civil War is bullshit, USA and CSA do have quite different economic interest. CSA have interest in free trade and USA in protectionism.

There’s also the cultural element, USA and CSA will be even more alien from each other than in OTL, and while USA will likely be less racists, they still don’t wish for a large Black population and they want even less to deal with the Southern aristocracy. Fundamentally USA would very much want the territory of CSA, but they don’t want the population which will come with it. While the Southern elite would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven. Immigrants in both countries also lack any interest in the two countries rejoining.
 
There's too much variables from 1865 to 2024 to predict how a CSA would look like. All predictions about "failed state" and "Brazil in North America" take the Confederate situation in 1865 and ISOT it in the 21st century. It's not how history work. Anything can happen just in the first half of the 20th century, starting with the abolition of slavery, that will radically change the ideological foundations of the CSA and pursue them to follow new economical development schemes. The CSA in 1960 could be anything from Mega Rhodesia to Weirdly-Accented US, or even a Communist country if some conditions play right (like non-white minorities exploiting their relative superior demographic weight compared to a unified US).

There’s a lot of geographic, climatic, cultural and demographic factors, which can use to get a good idea of how CSA would develop. The biggest questions with CSA are really how strong the states will be against the confederal central government, whether it will avoid military coups, how it will deal with the post-slavery situation.

I think failed state is incredible unlikely and Brazil Norte is far more likely.
 
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