What would happen if the Roman Empire simply was non-existent

Firstly, I would like to say I have a TL on this topic (check the sig) with a POD no Camillus saving Rome from the Senones, therefore there is a successful Senone destruction of Rome under Brennus. An unstable Senone kingdom is established in central Italy that for a few years expands throughout Etruria and Latium by sheer military momentum, but shit hits the fan. ;)

Ok,so long term *cracks knuckles*

I think Carthage would be a regional power in the western med sea for a while, but the Numidians would probably overcome them in the long run, at least in Algeria. Southern Spain was thoroughly Punicized, so I think unless some kind of genocide occurs, we can see Punic off-shoot languages in Spain (Ishfania) as well as North Africa, Malta, and the Balearic Islands. I would say one of these Punic successors would be the ones who discover the Americas, probably by ~900 A.D. (or what would equate to it).

As for the Greek world... well, its very very tricky. Things can go so many ways with all the wars between Diadochi, and then when the Galatians invade, AND THEN when the Parthians invade... There's a lot to take account for. I think, without any sub-POD's, you would most likely see Macedonia reunify Greece (it was a Roman priority to see that this never happened). Pyrrhus of Epirus would probably create a short lived and unified Epirote controlled Magna Graecia and Sicily, ousting the Carthaginians from Sicily like OTL, and able to retain control of said areas without Roman intervention. From there what happens is anyone's guess, but it would be fair to say a Greek majority would likely remain in Sicily and Magna Graecia until modern times, perhaps creating different languages along the way that branch off from main-line Greek.

I honestly think that the Seleucids are screwed if nothing changes before Antiochus III. The Parthians come along and invade Persia, the Jews gain independence, and the Armenians seize control of Syria and eastern Anatolia. Maybe the Armenians can hold Syria, and even take control of Palestine, who knows?

Dacia would likely unify under Burobista in the 1st century B.C. The Dacians oust the Celts from the Carpathians, and push into parts of Germany. This kingdom, however, will be unstable, and while it would be a huge threat to the Greeks, I think it would collapse in the wake of Germanic and Sarmatian migrations into the area. However, some form of Dacian might still be spoken in the mountains in modern times, best case scenario.

Egypt would probably decay under Ptolemy rule, eventually succumbing to revolt in which a short-lived native Pharaoh rules, but is overtaken by whoever the strongest power in the east med. sea is, because Egypt is just too valuable not to have. So could fall to either Seleucids, Armenians, Macedonians, Parthians, or Carthaginians depending on time period and your fancy.

Iberia, like I said, will be Punicized in the south, but will likely remain Celtic in the North. The Lucitanians were on the decline, and will be completely absorbed into Celtic culture. I'm unsure how long it will take for unified states to pop up, ancient Iberia is one of the chinks in my intellectual armor :p

GAUL!!!! CELTICA!!!! oh baby, my favorite. Well, as someone mentioned earlier, the Sweboz did invade Gaul, making the Sequani their bitch, by the time Julius Caesar walked in. However, what they failed to mention is that at this point in time the Romans had already taken over and invaded Gaul Narbonensis, southern Gaul, defeating the Allobroges (because they decided to invade Massalia, who was a Roman ally) who were close allies to the Arverni and Sequani, and would have been quite the help against the Sweboz. Not to mention the Arverni would still have been the most powerful hegemon without Roman intervention, meaning more Arverni to kick Germanic ass. In other words, the Sweboz would likely invade during and after the Arverni-Sequani-Allobroge alliance defeated the Aedui and their allies. The A-S-A alliance would then oust the Sweboz, pushing them back across the Rhine, where they belong. The Helvetti would relocate without the big fuss Caesar made, probably moving into Aquitainia. The most likely group to unify Gaul would be the Arverni with their capital in Gergovia.

I think the Gaulish language would adopt Greek letters for their alphabet eventually, which would trickle over to Britain, and so on. Interesting things would happen in Britain. Without Roman conquest, the Belgae tribes will not migrate there, meaning much of Southern Britain will be different. No Icene (meaning no Boudicca), no Belgae, no Dumnoni, none of that. It's hard to say what will happen there, but I think it would likely remain a backwater for a very very long time, undergoing invasions from Gaels, Scandinavians, and Picts who are arguably non-Celtic, or even non-Indo-European. In otherwords, chaos. They would be lucky if a unified Gaul decided to invade, perhaps to end piracy.

Germanic tribes would make a big mess of things. However, without Roman slaughter of the Celts, they would have a slightly lesser influence in Germania. Instead, many would move towards the Black Sea (like OTL, maybe a bit more) and there will be the center of Germanic culture. The void left by Germanic migrations will probably be filled by Slavs, like OTL, only instead of moving into the Balkans, they will move into the less profitable, less populated, less defensible, and less cultivated Germania. I'd say modern day Bohemia, Bavaria, and Austria would all either be Celtic, Slavic, or maybe mixed.

Illyria I think will either be Celticized or Hellenized. Maybe both, depending on how North or South. I doubt Illyrian piracy would be much tolerated as time passes.

Italy will be a cluster-fuck backwater shitheap without the Romans. Samnites running around, Celts in the north, Etruscans in Tuscany, Sabines and other Umbrians in central Italy, and Greeks in the South. I doubt any real unification would come for a very long time. Whats more likely is that, as time passes, Italy develops into 3 regions. North, dominated by the Celts, South, dominated by the Greeks, and central which I'd put money on the Samnites to dominate.

Religion will be more loosy goosy. I think the Cult of Isis would gain a lot of popularity throughout the mediterranean world, as could the cult of ba'al. Zoroastrianism persists in Persia, and might be the catalyst for a Christian analog.

However, I think Buddhism would be more interesting. If the Seleucids and the Greco-Bactrians can last longer, Buddhism might gain a foothold in the Greek world.

Judaism would undoubtably have offshoots bearing similarity to Christianity, but it is uncertain if any will have great appeal. One, if it came out, would likely be popular in places like Egypt, which had a large Jewish population, and Carthage, which had a large Semitic population.
 
You've put a lot of thought into this:).

It's kind of my niche on this site (that I gladly share with Lysandros and Monopolist, who I personally would call superior in knowledge). I really recommend anyone in this conversation to check out my TL, it seems like the kind of thing y'all would enjoy. I put a lot of work into it :)
 
I don't think the Seleucids were ever particularly screwed. They had a fairly efficient administrative administration. While certainly they had problems their most competent leader was on the road to conquering the former territories of the rest of the Successors.

The Armenians would not conquer Syria. Eastern Anatolia is an ambiguous term; if you mean Cappadocia, I think it was strong enough to defend itself from Armenians busy fighting against the Albanians, Iberians, and Lazicans. Not to mention that Pergamum is more likely to expand its influence in the region; it is after all the major power in Anatolia.
 
I don't think the Seleucids were ever particularly screwed. They had a fairly efficient administrative administration. While certainly they had problems their most competent leader was on the road to conquering the former territories of the rest of the Successors.

The Armenians would not conquer Syria. Eastern Anatolia is an ambiguous term; if you mean Cappadocia, I think it was strong enough to defend itself from Armenians busy fighting against the Albanians, Iberians, and Lazicans. Not to mention that Pergamum is more likely to expand its influence in the region; it is after all the major power in Anatolia.

Administrative administration :p sorry, I just thought that sounded funny.

The Seleucids after Antiochus III were over-extended with not enough men and too many wars. They had Parni-Parthians, Armenians, Galatians, Egyptians, Jews, Pontines, and lord knows how many other Kingdoms licking their chops at a piece of the Empire. The Romans surely added to the downfall and definitely hastened it, but the Seleucids were destined to fall before the 1st century AD.

And as for the Armenians... they did invade Syria, and Capadocia was briefly a vassal. Without the Romans to beat them around after Tigran the Great, I think the Armenians would do very well in the region.

Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif
 
wikipedia. Search Armenian Empire, you can find the article about it. A short, very much forgotten, yet very interesting chapter of history in my opinion.

Thanks.

Armenia seems to have had the misfortune of having both neighbors (Rome and whatever was in Iran) able to divide it, but in a timeline like this...who knows.
 
When's the PoD, Rome just not getting started, Carthage beating Rome in the Punic Wars, Vercingetorix beating Caeser?
 
When's the PoD, Rome just not getting started, Carthage beating Rome in the Punic Wars, Vercingetorix beating Caeser?

of the ones you listed, only the first really minimized affects of Roman presence. Other similar POD's might be Lars Parsennus gaining victory over Rome and the Etruscans simply beat the shit out of the city, Brennus and his Senones doing so, the Latin League defeats Rome, or the Roman monarch remains in power, keeping the city on par with all the other lousy city-states in Latium.
 
I wonder about Ptolemaic Egypt - after all in 168 BC Seleucids were a hairs breath from taking Alexandria. Funny thought - if after Seleucid conquest of Egypt another parties takes over their Persian and Greater Syria holdings it may have ended with remnant Seleucid kingdom in Egypt.

Another thought - with all this attention to diadochii ppl seems to have forgotten about developments in Greece, such as growth of Aetolian and Achaean Legues. Without Rome it's possible that they may end up uniting Greece. Achaen League by 150 BC OTL had control over the whole of Peloponese after all.
 
Administrative administration :p sorry, I just thought that sounded funny.

The Seleucids after Antiochus III were over-extended with not enough men and too many wars. They had Parni-Parthians, Armenians, Galatians, Egyptians, Jews, Pontines, and lord knows how many other Kingdoms licking their chops at a piece of the Empire. The Romans surely added to the downfall and definitely hastened it, but the Seleucids were destined to fall before the 1st century AD.

And as for the Armenians... they did invade Syria, and Capadocia was briefly a vassal. Without the Romans to beat them around after Tigran the Great, I think the Armenians would do very well in the region.

Yes, I would say they would fall eventually, but in its place there wouldn't be such a power vacuum. The Parni had their own problems fighting nomads. A devastating defeat by a competent ruler could give the Seleucids breathing space for some time to beat the Galatians and Pontines. it would be temporary but it would be an important respite.

The Problem with Tigranes is not only that map fairly inaccurate(Wikipedia is notorious for its utter lies when it comes to Armenian history), but Tigranes was a one-man show. That sort of empire was not sustainable by Armenia's base.
 
Yes, I would say they would fall eventually, but in its place there wouldn't be such a power vacuum. The Parni had their own problems fighting nomads. A devastating defeat by a competent ruler could give the Seleucids breathing space for some time to beat the Galatians and Pontines. it would be temporary but it would be an important respite.

The Problem with Tigranes is not only that map fairly inaccurate(Wikipedia is notorious for its utter lies when it comes to Armenian history), but Tigranes was a one-man show. That sort of empire was not sustainable by Armenia's base.

How bad are the maps when it comes to the issue of Armenia divided, like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roman-Persian_Frontier,_5th_century.png

Or even this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_East_50-en.svg

Actually this is interesting: http://rbedrosian.com/Maps/shpha33.htm

I think this site is generally reasonable, but I don't know enough other sources to compare.
 
Depends on how Rome doesn't become the Empire. If the POD is all the way back in the time of the Etruscans the overall butterflies will be vastly different. Some other state in Latium may rise in place of Rome, one somewhat less Etruscanized and therefore representing a different variant of Greco-Latin culture. Or alternately the Gallic civilization emerging in northern Europe may get the chance to turn into a real civilization and Cisalpine Gaul becomes the basis of Gallic *Italy.

At the very least the collapse of the Seleucid Empire will follow an OTL path, though without the Romans there is not necessarily going to be a single hegemon taking over the region. That doesn't always happen and at least one thing is certain: it won't be any one Greek state overwhelming the others.
 
I really don't get it why people always assume the Seleucid Empire is going to fall. They were pretty strong OTL and Antiochus III could have accomplished great things (one of my original ideas for a TL was one about him) in slightly different circumstances, and his heirs were no pushovers either.

If I were to venture I guess, I'd say the Seleucids eventually take Egypt while loosing Iran (to Bactria, Parthians, Rebellion or combination of). Mesopotamia then winds up being the battleground between this Iranian-based state and the Syria-Egypt-based Seleucids. If they remain strong, my bet is the Jews have zero chances to successfully rebel and instead will continue with their hellenization.

Obviously no state lives forever, but an eastern med dominated by a hellenized elite and an ever larger hellenic population divided into a couple of states with one or another occasionally gaining a short-lived dominance is IMHO quite likely.
 
Well, as someone mentioned earlier, the Sweboz did invade Gaul, making the Sequani their bitch, by the time Julius Caesar walked in.
It was me who did. :)
But you forget that The Germans of Ariovistus were the second wave.

The first German wave was annihilated by Roman cutthroats as well.
It was Cimbri and Teutones. In Julius Caesar's time the only glorious thing the Celts could remember about this memorable invasion was that they had to eat each other behind their walls in order not to surrender. It's a poor boast I'd say:rolleyes:

So, in OTL the Celts had two probable variants:
- to be dominated by the Germans
- to be dominated by the Romans

If we take the Romans out from this equation we've got the German yoke in this ATL.

* I enjoyed your post though. Very thorough thinking.

there are several variants of Cimbri and Teutones routes. but I found only that in english. others give even more territory which they plundered.

705px-Cimbrians_and_Teutons_invasions.svg.png
 
Just to throw in what I can about my area of expertise, though it's a not much: the issue will probably never be closed, but I believe the lastest scholarly consensus is that the Pictish language was almost certainly Celtic (personally I don't see where, if it was anything that could not quite easily be assimilated by Gaels, it went) and probably continuous with Brythonic. After all, the Roman walls were intended to separate confederate tribes as well as to mark the limits of the terrain, so it seems sensible to imagine that the people south of the Antonine wall, who we know were Brythons, shared a language with the allies in the north. The Roman expeditions never commented on any difference.

And I believe some of those enigmatic Ogham stones from Orkney have finally yielded something legibly Celtic.
 
Here is my vision of this world in the year 100 AD.
Some quick notes and predictions,
*The colonies in Italy are exaggerated by map maker's mistake.
*Clear areas are not necessarily undeveloped, just not large powers.
*After this I think that the Armenians are going to continue to move north and get into a fight with the germanic empire, the germanic empire is falling because of internal issues (similar to the way Rome would have around the time).
*The Ptolemaic Empire fell under the weight of Seleucids.
*Numidia is expanding North and is going to rid spain of celts.
*DO NOT TAKE THIS MAP TO SHOW that greece is united, it is not.
*The Estherian Empire is the Jewish world.
*Valentinian Gnosticism is spreading in the Seleucid empire, in 100 years it will be on par with Zoroastrianism.
Anything people would like to add?
 
It was me who did. :)
But you forget that The Germans of Ariovistus were the second wave.

The first German wave was annihilated by Roman cutthroats as well.
It was Cimbri and Teutones. In Julius Caesar's time the only glorious thing the Celts could remember about this memorable invasion was that they had to eat each other behind their walls in order not to surrender. It's a poor boast I'd say:rolleyes:

So, in OTL the Celts had two probable variants:
- to be dominated by the Germans
- to be dominated by the Romans

If we take the Romans out from this equation we've got the German yoke in this ATL.

* I enjoyed your post though. Very thorough thinking.

there are several variants of Cimbri and Teutones routes. but I found only that in english. others give even more territory which they plundered.

Why do you assume that the Germanics would be a problem for the Celts just as IOTL? The Arverni kingdom was the most powerful force in Gaul for roughly a century until their war with Rome in the 120's BCE. Ten years after losing their hegemony in Gaul, the Cimbri-Teutones, travelling through the Boii lands in central Europe, terrorize SOME of the Celtic tribes (such as the Taurisici in Austria), while Helvetian Tigurini and even some of the Boii from central Europe joined forces with them. The Cimbri-Teutones moved around for years without succeeding to establish a new homeland, which indicates that even in their divisive state, the Gauls in the north were still able to hold their own.

In a situation where Rome never expands beyond Italy, the Arverni may continue to go unchallenged by their neighbours. And perhaps strengthen their hegemony in Gaul, just as Rome gradually assimilated its Italian allied states. If that were the case, the Cimbri-Teutones would be more cautious about invading Gaul than they were IOTL. Even the Cimbri-Teutones seemed to prefer living on the periphery of Roman territory, for all their early victories against the consular armies.
 
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