What would happen if the Roman Empire simply was non-existent
- Thread starter willbell
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My guess is that in the East we will have the Great Seleucid Empire (the Romans didn't destroy it).
And I promise you plenty of revolts and jewish-Seleucid wars in this ATL. (As it was in OTL).
So the situation 'Romans-Jews' will be replaced by the same situation 'Seleucids-Jews'.
Actually the same conditions more or less.
Maybe Christianity will be a little different than in OTL. But it will be.
Get the Jews and the Greeks together, shake well - and you'll get Christianity in given time
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
You do realize Marcion was a heretic to most Christians? He called the god of the Old Testament evil!
I'm fairly sure that the jews got along with Seleucid empire (in fact the Kitos war was fought by the jews over the invasion of parthia because the jews didn't like seeing the jewish-friendly nation being invaded).My guess is that in the East we will have the Great Seleucid Empire (the Romans didn't destroy it).
And I promise you plenty of revolts and jewish-Seleucid wars in this ATL. (As it was in OTL).
So the situation 'Romans-Jews' will be replaced by the same situation 'Seleucids-Jews'.
Actually the same conditions more or less.
Maybe Christianity will be a little different than in OTL. But it will be.
Get the Jews and the Greeks together, shake well - and you'll get Christianity in given time
You are very wrong. Seleucid had similar problems with the jews as Romans did.
Check this out, for example - Maccabean Revolt
Any pagan power which tried to rule the Jews would have problems anyway
Proto-Catholicism is never the less based on Marcionism, in fact there is evidence that luke is actually watered-down Marcion.
I suggest the following video:
Christian Orthodoxy
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
You are very wrong. Seleucid had similar problems with the jews as Romans did.
Check this out, for example - Maccabean Revolt
Any pagan power which tried to rule the Jews would have problems anyway
Persia, Babylon or Assyria had no such problems.
As a matter of fact they did. But of course the Jews were less troublesome before 1 century BC.
Judaism was not the same for several thousand years. It was not static religion. It was very dynamic.
And when I speak of the Jews of 1 century BC - 1 century AD - I speak about this period only.
* Not about Assyrian times, not about modern Israel, not about Exodus. Sorry.
The Seleucids already had their hands full with Rome during the Maccabean Revolt. Antiochus IV Epiphanes was due to invade Egypt in 168 BCE. He was talked out of it by the diplomat Gaius Popillius Laenas, who warned him that Rome would declare war if he went further with his intentions. By the 140's BCE, the Senatus Populusque Romanus had established an alliance with Judeans. Without the Roman Republic in the picture, the Seleucids would have had plenty of time to extinguish the Makabim rebellion. This would not have actually been the end of Judaism itself, as there was a large minority in Mesopotamia. But the Hasmonean state would likely be purged from history.
Christianity would most likely not exist without the Roman Empire. Anything like it may be written about by different authors, with differing ideas from the authors of Acts, Epistles and Gospels. And even then, it won't be a guarantee that they would have a chance of superseding the older religions with the aid of secular imperial patronage.
Christianity would most likely not exist without the Roman Empire. Anything like it may be written about by different authors, with differing ideas from the authors of Acts, Epistles and Gospels. And even then, it won't be a guarantee that they would have a chance of superseding the older religions with the aid of secular imperial patronage.
Do you think there is any other candidates that could have became a new religion out of judaism, or how about something totally different and some form of pagan fringe takes over, perhaps a germanic cult worshiping gods such as Woden?
The Seleucids were not going to last forever. Even at their height they always had the problem that their empire was ruled by and for a Greek/Macedonian minority imposed at spear point on dissimilar cultures. There were constant efforts by outlying provinces (Parthia, Bactria, Pontus, Pergamon) to break away even before the Romans won at Magnesia. Sooner or later, demographics would win out.
Ptolemaic Egypt had a better chance to last longer (and in fact it did) but it didn't have the resources to dominate the whole Mediterranean. It had a decent navy though, and could establish colonies further afield.
Macedon was reviving when Rome took it down. I can see it dominating Greece and Anatolia again.
Carthage should dominate coastal areas of the west. Maybe it disputes Italy in a multisided conflict with local powers, Macedon or Epirus and the Ptolemies.
Ptolemaic Egypt had a better chance to last longer (and in fact it did) but it didn't have the resources to dominate the whole Mediterranean. It had a decent navy though, and could establish colonies further afield.
Macedon was reviving when Rome took it down. I can see it dominating Greece and Anatolia again.
Carthage should dominate coastal areas of the west. Maybe it disputes Italy in a multisided conflict with local powers, Macedon or Epirus and the Ptolemies.
There is no reason to assume that other ethnic religions in the ancient world wouldn't possess their own doctrinal or theological developments.
Getae-Dacia in the northern Balkans had their powerful and politically controlled cult of Zalmoxis.
The Druids in Gaul had their yearly synods held in the homeland territory of the Carnute tribe (Loir-et-Cher, Loiret and Eure-et-Loir), in either the city of Autricum (Chartres) or Cenabum (Orleans).
The Punic Carthaginians had their own professional priesthoods, who ran estates and business on behalf of the temple they served in.
The Seleucids and Ptolemies had their royal cults as well as the backing of the indigenous priesthoods of their host countries. Would the Egyptian religion have declined if its priesthood still had political influence in its own country?!
Here is how I view the timeline so far. Rome ransacked by the Etruscans, Persia (sorry for not using formal names) takes ptolemic kingdom, Germanic peoples expand south, the rest of the latins are wiped out, in hispania carthage conflicts with the celts, sicily and Sardinia become battle grounds as the germanic people move south, macedonians make a temporary alliance with the rest of mainland greece, it sounds like an interesting line of events but perhaps not to practical. Also another question, what about Massalia (a greek colony in the Mediterranean-France area), I had not heard of them till recently and have no idea how to gauge their ability.
Massalia was like most Greek city-states, in that they were not well-disposed to granting citizenship to just anyone. This was one of Rome's strengths in OTL. They would occasionally reward citizenship to allied communities, and later to contingents of troops who served Rome after years in the military. Its doubtful that Massalia would practice anything like that. The resident populations of most Hellenic city-states were Metics, with fewer people holding citizenship, usually because their paternal ancestors were among the founders of the city.
Ok. Christianity as we know won't appear in the world without Rome.
But what about some Judaic sect which somehow decided to spread Judaism of Old Testament to non-Jews? So to say 'Judaism for non-Jews' which became very proselytic. Is it possible?
It might be similar to Islam or something like that.
Actually that's what I meant.
Mandaeans, for whom John the Baptist is their main prophet, are similarly derived from Judaism. But they consider Jesus to have been a usurper of the teachings of Yohanan (John the Baptist). They also reject Abraham and Moses as prophets, while recognising Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah and Shem as their ancestors.
Its possible to have outwardly proselytising Abrahamic cults. But for anyone of one of them to grow influential enough to court the patronage of the ruling regime is another matter. Its also possible for ethnic polytheistic religions to develop new ideologies as well. Not every revolutionary believe-system is destined to be Abrahamic, or to come from the Near East.
Jlinker613
Banned
-Carthage would take over Iberia, South France, Italy, Malta, Sardinia, Corsica, the Balearic Islands, and perhaps Dalmatia. It won't be able to expand East though, it cannot face a powerful coherent military force
-Ptolemaic Egypt would not be taken over, it is too easily defended to be conquered. It would expand no farther than Judea or perhaps Lebanon. Maybe even Cyprus or further south on the nile. These are all geoplitical defensive imperatives. Egyptians never expanded far because they never wanted or needed to.
-A Celtic Empire of sorts would most likely form from the British Isles and North France.
-The Germanics would probably form some sort of inferior coherent entity.
-Someone would eventually unify Arabia, and would most likely expand into Somalia/Djibouti rather than push north against the stronger Persia and Egypt.
-Axum would have remained an influential nation.
-Greek city-states would have become independent again. Macedonia would exist as a constant threat.
- Persia would be constantly fighting with Egypt and later the Arabs and Turks
-Ptolemaic Egypt would not be taken over, it is too easily defended to be conquered. It would expand no farther than Judea or perhaps Lebanon. Maybe even Cyprus or further south on the nile. These are all geoplitical defensive imperatives. Egyptians never expanded far because they never wanted or needed to.
-A Celtic Empire of sorts would most likely form from the British Isles and North France.
-The Germanics would probably form some sort of inferior coherent entity.
-Someone would eventually unify Arabia, and would most likely expand into Somalia/Djibouti rather than push north against the stronger Persia and Egypt.
-Axum would have remained an influential nation.
-Greek city-states would have become independent again. Macedonia would exist as a constant threat.
- Persia would be constantly fighting with Egypt and later the Arabs and Turks
Maybe Ethiopia take or unite with Yemen, and take territories around both regions... The Hedjas? Some modern Sudan/Nubia?
I see that as extremely possible, especially on the persian scale, I bet another prophet or even Jesus could create a alternative religion, perhaps we could get as far as Marcionesque religion, maybe Valentinian Gnosticism could get a toe hold, but overall I think paganism would be dominant, perhaps Carthagian-Phoenician would spread through the trade routes (since they would have some influence on the areas that they trade with), in fact that seems likely.
I think that without Rome, the various Diadochi kingdoms would rise to prominence in its stead, if not necessarily in the forms they took OTL.
In particular, the polities of the upper Nile and the Arabian Peninsula would eventually be hellenized, much like the Gauls were OTL. It's possible that the branch of Arabic that's so widespread OTL would be nearly extinct except possibly in the horn of Africa, but pre-Islamic Arabic traditions would become standard practice in the Ptolemaic and Seleucid empires. Meanwhile, the Carthaginian Punic languages would become popular throughout the western mediterranean, though outside its major ports it would largely be considered a backwater. It would, however, be in a good position to trade with the West African kingdoms and, later on, to colonize or trade with the New World; there's no telling what butterflies will result from an alternate native american plague.
Perhaps India would be a rough analogue of russia in this case; it would be hellenized to some extent but wouldn't really be considered part of hellenic civilization by the more western civs.
Then there are the barbarians. Without a weakening rome to stir up the great migrations of the era, they have ample opportunity to turn on one another and consolidate.
The Italian Peninsula still needs consideration; Rome isn't gone, just neutered; my guess is that the Samnites would expand through much of the southern peninsula and might later become a greek client state. The Etruscans might be able to hold on to their identity if the Celts don't decide to invade.
The Celts would occupy north spain, west france, and the british isles while the Germans would occupy eastern france, northern Germany, and much of the Baltic. Perhaps they could expand eastward and attack the Slavic and Scythian tribes, which might then flee east and sack China, or go south and sack Bactria, Persia, and India. It would certainly be odd if, say, OTL Pakistan was home to a *slavic state in the same way OTL has Turkey descended from central Asian tribes.
The ethnic geography of all of Europe and the middle east would be altered drastically; it would certainly be an interesting world.
In particular, the polities of the upper Nile and the Arabian Peninsula would eventually be hellenized, much like the Gauls were OTL. It's possible that the branch of Arabic that's so widespread OTL would be nearly extinct except possibly in the horn of Africa, but pre-Islamic Arabic traditions would become standard practice in the Ptolemaic and Seleucid empires. Meanwhile, the Carthaginian Punic languages would become popular throughout the western mediterranean, though outside its major ports it would largely be considered a backwater. It would, however, be in a good position to trade with the West African kingdoms and, later on, to colonize or trade with the New World; there's no telling what butterflies will result from an alternate native american plague.
Perhaps India would be a rough analogue of russia in this case; it would be hellenized to some extent but wouldn't really be considered part of hellenic civilization by the more western civs.
Then there are the barbarians. Without a weakening rome to stir up the great migrations of the era, they have ample opportunity to turn on one another and consolidate.
The Italian Peninsula still needs consideration; Rome isn't gone, just neutered; my guess is that the Samnites would expand through much of the southern peninsula and might later become a greek client state. The Etruscans might be able to hold on to their identity if the Celts don't decide to invade.
The Celts would occupy north spain, west france, and the british isles while the Germans would occupy eastern france, northern Germany, and much of the Baltic. Perhaps they could expand eastward and attack the Slavic and Scythian tribes, which might then flee east and sack China, or go south and sack Bactria, Persia, and India. It would certainly be odd if, say, OTL Pakistan was home to a *slavic state in the same way OTL has Turkey descended from central Asian tribes.
The ethnic geography of all of Europe and the middle east would be altered drastically; it would certainly be an interesting world.