What was the tech level in 18th century China?

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Just curious for a scenario I came up with. Basically the HRE unites Christendom, the map's on my dA if you're interested.

So in the mid-1700s, Chinese explorers and traders start expanding influence into the Middle East. This comes into contact with the HREs crusader state and things go bad from there.

I'm curious as to what Chinese military technology was like around this time IOTL so I can properly judge how a battle would go for the two powers. For the HRE, they're sort of stuck around 1400 tech levels. They've got some incredibly powerful crossbows, and they reached the peak in terms of plate armour already, but gunpowder units are very rare.

Bonus points if you include the fact that this China has had literally no European influence

 

[Winston Smith]

Excuse me, the 18th Century and your talking about Crusader States, plate armour and crossbows? F*** the what?

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Excuse me, the 18th Century and your talking about Crusader States, plate armour and crossbows? F*** the what?

Pay attention, the explanation for that is in the OP.

 

[Moonstruck]

Pay attention, the explanation for that is in the OP.

I think his main complaint is that this is absolute ASB, and that the OP does not, in fact, contain any description of how this anachronistic abomination came to pass. Technology does not simply stay stuck in the 1400s, and even if it did, that's not exactly the age of crusades either.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

I think his main complaint is that this is absolute ASB, and that the OP does not, in fact, contain any description of how this anachronistic abomination came to pass. Technology does not simply stay stuck in the 1400s, and even if it did, that's not exactly the age of crusades either.

Oi vey. It's my own scenario, okay. It's not supposed to be realistic.

I just want to know about Chinese military tech in the mid-18th century. That's all, I don't care if this is realistic or not.

 

[Advernt]

Oi vey. It's my own scenario, okay. It's not supposed to be realistic.

I just want to know about Chinese military tech in the mid-18th century. That's all, I don't care if this is realistic or not.

Curbstomp. The Chinese had gunpowder armies by this time. The Green banner armies will sweep the ill disciplined Feudal Levies of the Crusader Kingdoms of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greater Syria , etc.

ESPECIALLY if they have the ability to supply an army all the way that far from the main urban centers of China. Which means Railroads. Minimum.

Sino-wank.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Curbstomp. The Chinese had gunpowder armies by this time. The Green banner armies will sweep the ill disciplined Feudal Levies of the Crusader Kingdoms of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greater Syria , etc.

ESPECIALLY if they have the ability to supply an army all the way that far from the main urban centers of China. Which means Railroads. Minimum.

Sino-wank.

Does gunpowder mean automatic victory? I was under the impression that a crossbow would have better range and accuracy then an early rifle, though I'm unsure exactly what Chinese firearms were like at this point.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Does gunpowder mean automatic victory? I was under the impression that a crossbow would have better range and accuracy then an early rifle, though I'm unsure exactly what Chinese firearms were like at this point.

In fact, during the Opium wars, the Chinese generals looked at the British army and said. "What threat can THEY be, they don't have any archers." Seriously. It is true that the Chinese had firearms, and used them, but they were poor enough they thought archers were also necessary.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

In fact, during the Opium wars, the Chinese generals looked at the British army and said. "What threat can THEY be, they don't have any archers." Seriously. It is true that the Chinese had firearms, and used them, but they were poor enough they thought archers were also necessary.

Alright then.

So how would Chinese cavalry likely compare to European heavy cavalry?

 

[TyranicusMaximus]

Production: 40
Land: 42
Trade: 35
Naval: 38

Oh wait, I don't think that's what you mean

 

[scholar]

In fact, during the Opium wars, the Chinese generals looked at the British army and said. "What threat can THEY be, they don't have any archers." Seriously. It is true that the Chinese had firearms, and used them, but they were poor enough they thought archers were also necessary.

That was more do to the decadence of the military at the time. Earlier, more stable and not-corrupt, periods would have the Qing military being exceptionally powerful and disciplined.

 

[scholar]

So how would Chinese cavalry likely compare to European heavy cavalry?

It would be superior. Chinese cavalry has extensive experience dealing with the Mongols, Uyghurs, and the 'Wild' Jurchens.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

It would be superior. Chinese cavalry has extensive experience dealing with the Mongols, Uyghurs, and the 'Wild' Jurchens.

Weren't those people's more focused on light, missile cavalry then armoured heavy cavalry?

 

[Kome]

Does gunpowder mean automatic victory? I was under the impression that a crossbow would have better range and accuracy then an early rifle, though I'm unsure exactly what Chinese firearms were like at this point.

On the other hand i recall the Chinese used firearms and repeating crossbows in tandem with each other. So, best of both worlds?

 

[scholar]

Weren't those people's more focused on light, missile cavalry then armoured heavy cavalry?

Depends on the region, but by and large yes.

Even so, if this is taking place inside the Middle East then you don't want heavy cavalry.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

On the other hand i recall the Chinese used firearms and repeating crossbows in tandem with each other. So, best of both worlds?

Yeah I heard about the repeating crossbow, it looks rather cumbersome but it seems to work well enough.

Though I've still never seen a Chinese flintlock, other then those bought of Europeans. They seem to have made it to hand cannons and then stopped.

Depends on the region, but by and large yes.

Even so, if this is taking place inside the Middle East then you don't want heavy cavalry.

True. However the Europeans living there will probably have adapted somewhat to suit the climate, maybe trying to make their own missile cavalry. But of course armoured knights will always be a part of a feudal, Christian European nation.

 

[Faeelin]

In fact, during the Opium wars, the Chinese generals looked at the British army and said. "What threat can THEY be, they don't have any archers." Seriously. It is true that the Chinese had firearms, and used them, but they were poor enough they thought archers were also necessary.

Do you have a cite for this anecdote? It might be true, but it's hard to square with the prolific use of firearms during the Taiping Rebellion, a few years later.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Do you have a cite for this anecdote? It might be true, but it's hard to square with the prolific use of firearms during the Taiping Rebellion, a few years later.

Last year I got some Opium Wars books out of the Library and read through them all. I don't remember the exact setting, but I think it was in multiple books. I'm guessing it must have been in the First Opium War, as by the end of it the Qing had learned to respect British arms (even if not the British). I have a vague recollection it was up north, not around Canton, but I could be wrong.

I made copious notes - which were on the thumbdrive that had my TL and that I then lost. Sigh.

 

[amphibulous]

Curbstomp. The Chinese had gunpowder armies by this time.

But only because the musket had been transmitted from Europe. From wikipedia:

A Chinese military manual published in 1644 compared Ottoman and European firearms in the following manner:[4]

Firearms have been in use since the beginning of the dynasty, and field armies in battle formation have found them convenient and useful to carry along...Since muskets have been transmitted to China, these weapons have lost their effectiveness...In battle formation, aside from various cannon such as the "three generals," the breach loading swivel gun, and the "hundred-league thunder," nothing has more range or power than the Ottoman musket. The next best is the European one.
​

The OP is meaningless/unanswerable - you can't say anything about Chinese military capabilities at that date if Europe's history had diverged in the crusader state era, as so much feedback from Europe had taken place by then. Well - you can assume that they at least had decent crossbows, but probably didn't have tanks...

 

[amphibulous]

Do you have a cite for this anecdote? [I.e. that the Chinese were contemptuous of the British lack of archers in the Opium War] It might be true, but it's hard to square with the prolific use of firearms during the Taiping Rebellion, a few years later.

The Chinese certainly used archers as frontline troops in the Opium War:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taku_Forts_(1859)

The Chinese gunners concentrated their cannons, swivel guns and rockets on the landing party. As the Britons and French came within range, Chinese riflemen and archers opened upon them from a crowded crest of the South Fort's rampart.

It's not as silly as it sounds: Wellington had wanted archer battalions during the Napoleonic Wars - good archers (who no longer existed in the UK) had a much higher rate of fire than muskets. Plus they can do arching ballistic fire.