What total number of Han settlers could Siberia and Central Asia support?

Eucalyptus

Banned
If China somehow managed to hold Siberia indefinitely, let's say up to the Yenisey River, and the part of Central Asia that the Qing lost in our reality in the 1870s, I think it would be possible to overwhelm these regions with Han settlers without using ASB.

You could already stack up 20 million settlers in Balkhachia and another 20 million in Outer Mongolia by having them grow the same arid-zone foods as in Xinjiang and Outer Mongolia (grapes, melons, etc.). You could also easily place 50 million settlers in Outer Manchuria, another 50 million in Baikalia and perhaps 10 million in Yakutia by having them plant short-growth foods (quinoa, beans, etc.), which wouldn't be too difficult despite the frost since these last regions have black soil.

What do you think? Would it be possible to prevent Chinese emigration to Southeast Asia and California, and later the one-child policy, with this program? How powerful would be this such Chinese monster stretching up to Arctic?​
 
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kholieken

Banned
Manchuria and Hokkaido only settled in 19th century, so you have extremely narrow time window. I think number would be very limited.

If they are spaces, Russisn would settle them in 19th century, at that time many Russian is poor and want profitable lands. Amd Russian much better than Han in dry cold agriculture.
 
If China somehow managed to hold Siberia indefinitely, let's say up to the Yenisey River, and the part of Central Asia that the Qing lost in our reality in the 1870s, I think it would be possible to overwhelm these regions with Han settlers without using ASB.

You could already stack up 20 million settlers in Balkhachia and another 20 million in Outer Mongolia by having them grow the same arid-zone foods as in Xinjiang and Outer Mongolia (grapes, melons, etc.). You could also easily place 50 million settlers in Outer Manchuria, another 50 million in Baikalia and perhaps 10 million in Yakutia by having them plant short-growth foods (quinoa, beans, etc.), which wouldn't be too difficult despite the frost since these last regions have black soil.

What do you think? Would it be possible to prevent Chinese emigration to Southeast Asia and California, and later the one-child policy, with this program? How powerful would be this such Chinese monster stretching up to Arctic?​
China didn't have much interest in settling the northern territories for a long time and as kholieken said Chuang Guandong (Han settlement of Manchuria/the Northeast) didn't happen until the 19th century. By that point, the borders with Russia were already demarcated. Chuang Guandong was enabled by Manchu landlords who wanted laborers and were allowed because they needed to hold the region against Russia. The Qing didn't hold as much control over the Mongols and especially Outer Mongolia who they were in alliance. I don't think Outer Mongolian banners wanted to host a significant Han population.

As for the last part, it would not be possible. Chinese migration into Manchuria happened basically concurrently with the migration of Chinese to places outside China. Moreover, both migrations involved different regions of China, the former being primarily Shandong and other northern provinces while the latter involved Guangdong and Fujian, southern Chinese provinces. If a theoretical Chinese settlement of Siberia occurred, it would be northern-dominated. Overseas migration would still be southern-dominated. And I don't see how 1CP wouldn't still apply unless people stopped having children all of a sudden due to mass migration...
 

Eucalyptus

Banned
The West Siberian steppe has some of the best agricultural land in the world, so I agree that it's inevitable that it will fall to the Slavs, but isn't it possible to prevent the Russian Empire from reaching the Sea of Okhotsk by, for example, sinking it in a long civil war? PoD can be traced back to Ivan the Terrible.
 
The West Siberian steppe has some of the best agricultural land in the world, so I agree that it's inevitable that it will fall to the Slavs, but isn't it possible to prevent the Russian Empire from reaching the Sea of Okhotsk by, for example, sinking it in a long civil war? PoD can be traced back to Ivan the Terrible.
We do have the Time of Troubles, we could either extend it or have Poland-Lithuania win against the Russians.
 
If China somehow managed to hold Siberia indefinitely, let's say up to the Yenisey River, and the part of Central Asia that the Qing lost in our reality in the 1870s, I think it would be possible to overwhelm these regions with Han settlers without using ASB.

You could already stack up 20 million settlers in Balkhachia and another 20 million in Outer Mongolia by having them grow the same arid-zone foods as in Xinjiang and Outer Mongolia (grapes, melons, etc.). You could also easily place 50 million settlers in Outer Manchuria, another 50 million in Baikalia and perhaps 10 million in Yakutia by having them plant short-growth foods (quinoa, beans, etc.), which wouldn't be too difficult despite the frost since these last regions have black soil.

What do you think? Would it be possible to prevent Chinese emigration to Southeast Asia and California, and later the one-child policy, with this program? How powerful would be this such Chinese monster stretching up to Arctic?​
Well outer Mongolia only has 3 million people OTL so 20 seems unlikely and the lake baikal region has 1.5 million (if we're being generous) so 50 seems very unlikely
 
How old of POD? I'd argue the easiest is the Yuan Dynasty since they controlled most of that area anyway, at least nominally. Toghon Temur was fairly effective at fixing the problems that plagued the Yuan in the 1320s and early 1330s--unfortunately, he had the terrible luck of natural disasters and lost a few important battles against the Red Turbans that spiraled into complete disaster. If we presume he does a little better and surpresses the Red Turbans, then his two sons Biligtu and Uskhal (both of whom were extremely potent foes to the Ming, especially the former) could likewise do a good job solving Yuan's problems, although Uskhal might only live until the mid-1390s given the age his father Toghon died at.

Regardless, those three khagans (and let's assume maybe 2-3 other competent khagans in the 15th century) could prolong the Yuan's survival until the mid-late 16th century or maybe into the 17th century. In that time, it will be very much a Sinicised dynasty and a lot of Koreans and Chinese will settle there. Bonus points if some khagan takes another swing at Japan (maybe one of the Ashikaga shoguns aka "Kings of Japan" requests it and the wokou are proving especially irritation so the Yuan court spins it into something bigger) and decides a dual north-south invasion using the more developed Manchuria (including Sakhalin) as a springboard--I can only think that's a fantastic way to get the Yuan more focused on the north and Kublai Khan desired it until his death and only begrudgingly accepted his ministers's advice not to. Similarly, the descendents of Genghis Khan's brothers, who had fiefs in Manchuria and Inner Mongolia, could increasingly Sinicise themselves. I don't think it's possible (or desirable) for the Yuan to mess with them since it was basically illegal under dynastic law and their OTL revolt under Prince Nayan devastated the area which is the opposite of what we want. We'll also assume that the other Mongol khanates like the Chaghatai and Jochids do no better than OTL.

So when Yuan collapses, any Jurchen or Mongol state is too weak to reassert regional power (and might be mutually at odds) and the real power in the area are Han Chinese and Koreans (perhaps Sinicised Koreans) and the area falls into the hands of the successor dynasty. This successor dynasty never gets as conservative as Ming did and still remains fairly open. The settlement of the area continues, both officially and unofficially, since some ministers might notice that having a bunch of ethnic Han settlers in the area acts as a good hedge against the barbarians since there would be few or no attacks on northern China. Crushing the khanates in the west (Borjigin remnants and others) would also be a security measure and they could do something like the Dzunghar genocide for the same reason and acquire the borders OP specifies. We'll stop the scenario here and imagine this dynasty successfully limps its way to the modern age and reforms into a nation roughly as bureacratic and economically developed as modern China (still too conservative for quick economic development, but no deep pits to pull itself out of caused by the Warlord Era, Japanese invasion, and Maoist mismanagement).

If we're going to assume a 19th century POD, then I just don't think it's feasible since the Qing were pretty poor off in that era and can't easily block Russian expansion into that region without European aid, except Russia's main enemy Britain would prefer Russia wastes time and resources there instead of expanding into the Balkans or Central Asia.

So overall we could probably have significant settlement in those regions with a Chinese mindset like this and internal incentives. But I think the most distant regions will be inherently less settled, like for instance the shores of Lake Balkhash will be difficult to draw settlers to because of how remote they are and how Xinjiang is still not "filled up", so reaching Xinjiang's population density and resulting population (14.5 million) would be challenging. Outer Manchuria and Sakhalin have the problem of terrain--the seas around both freeze up in the winter and Outer Manchuria is extremely mountainous and only a few areas of good soil unlike the rest of Manchuria which has good farmland and very good soil. I doubt more than 20 million in that region. The area around Lake Baikal is very good for agriculture, although has many mountains, but access is difficult because one must pass through the Gobi Desert and nearby mountains to get there, so early settlement (which is crucial for high population density come modernity) is difficult at best. Maybe 15 million at most in the 1.5 million km2 surrounding it.

OP is incorrect that Yakutia has good soil--it does not since the chernozem belt that stretches east from Ukraine does not extend much further north than Baikal. There is a reason why the Russians settled Siberia the way they did, after all. While agriculture has been done in Yakutia since the 19th century (long daylight and warm summers helps, but the potential for early or late frosts is damaging), it seems to be fairly marginal at best and nowadays mostly limited to vegetables and gardens. It's also expensive to develop since it has high heating requirements (as it is the coldest place on Earth outside of Antarctica) and the permafrost requires very specific and expensive methods of building. So I doubt you'd get much more than 8-10 million in the entire stretch from the Lower Yenisei to the Kolyma to the Bering Strait, probably about half in Kamchatka which is a good place for an airport/seaport (northern great circle to the American West Coast) and has very good and mostly volcanic soils. At least if Kamchatka is settled early enough.

There is also a core population restriction of protein. The Chinese desire a high meat diet because it is prestigious and signifies wealth. Modern China is only about 75-80% self-sufficient in meat and this is by far China's largest food import (China is self-sufficient in grains and in recent years was the 6th largest exporter of rice). I suspect these marginal areas, some of which have very good soil for herding or growing crops for animal feed, economic logic will prefer this region be converted into pasture which is going to be less dense than a patchwork of farming towns so encourages migration to cities. These cities might be not even be in the region but larger cities in China proper, especially since local cities have unpleasant climate (too cold) and may be based on boom-bust industries like regional mining.

It goes without saying that this China would be a global superpower, and one probably less dependent on outside nations than modern China is. However, as noted it would still need to import a lot of food (meat) and the modern paradigm of global trade does mean it's cheaper (and beneficial to Chinese hegemony) to invest and import from foreign mines than develop yet more mines in Siberia.
What do you think? Would it be possible to prevent Chinese emigration to Southeast Asia and California, and later the one-child policy, with this program? How powerful would be this such Chinese monster stretching up to Arctic?
There's too much corruption baked into the Imperial Chinese system to prevent a significant amount of emigration, and too many countries in the New World who couldn't be convinced (or lacked the capability) to ban Chinese immigration. For instance, Chinese kept coming into the US after the Chinese Exclusion Act because they would go through Canada (slightly less restrictive) or especially Mexico (no restrictions at all). Back in that era, it was common--and well-known to the authorities--that the Chinese would just walk across the border and if anyone asked they'd claim to be Mexicans.
Manchuria and Hokkaido only settled in 19th century, so you have extremely narrow time window. I think number would be very limited.
Thing is settlement in Manchuria was deliberately restricted by the Qing. During the Yuan dynasty at least it had ethnic Han settlement, even if most of the outside settlement were Koreans (who fled, perished, or assimilated because of harsh winters, epidemic, and above all, the decades of war in the region because of the Red Turban Rebellion and Ming-Northern Yuan wars). Incidentally, Outer Manchuria is extremely agriculturally productive for wheat, barley, vegetables, etc.

Hokkaido was similar anyway in that it was off-limits to settle (outside of the southern Oshima Peninsula) since its feudal rulers preferred making it an extractive colony for furs, fish, and strictly controlled trade with the Ainu. I'd argue that if the Chinese ever controlled Hokkaido (extreme difficulties of that aside unless we're talking Tang Dynasty or earlier POD), they'd probably act similarly because it's a distant region for extraction and would let them do backdoor trade with Japan (kind of like how Sakhalin was used OTL).
Well outer Mongolia only has 3 million people OTL so 20 seems unlikely and the lake baikal region has 1.5 million (if we're being generous) so 50 seems very unlikely
In the case of the former, a huge number of Mongols died or fled during the chaos caused by the fall of Qing and imposition of Stalinist-influenced policies. This included nearly all the ethnic Han population of Mongolia, who made up over 10% of the population and in the capital Ulaanbaatar made up over 50% the population. There was an element of ethnic cleansing to this since the Mongol leadership believed the Han were going to demographically overwhelm them, even though Han settlement in Mongolia is fairly old since Karakorum back in the heyday of the Mongol Empire always had a large Han community.
 

Eucalyptus

Banned
How old of POD? I'd argue the easiest is the Yuan Dynasty since they controlled most of that area anyway, at least nominally. Toghon Temur was fairly effective at fixing the problems that plagued the Yuan in the 1320s and early 1330s--unfortunately, he had the terrible luck of natural disasters and lost a few important battles against the Red Turbans that spiraled into complete disaster. If we presume he does a little better and surpresses the Red Turbans, then his two sons Biligtu and Uskhal (both of whom were extremely potent foes to the Ming, especially the former) could likewise do a good job solving Yuan's problems, although Uskhal might only live until the mid-1390s given the age his father Toghon died at.

Regardless, those three khagans (and let's assume maybe 2-3 other competent khagans in the 15th century) could prolong the Yuan's survival until the mid-late 16th century or maybe into the 17th century. In that time, it will be very much a Sinicised dynasty and a lot of Koreans and Chinese will settle there. Bonus points if some khagan takes another swing at Japan (maybe one of the Ashikaga shoguns aka "Kings of Japan" requests it and the wokou are proving especially irritation so the Yuan court spins it into something bigger) and decides a dual north-south invasion using the more developed Manchuria (including Sakhalin) as a springboard--I can only think that's a fantastic way to get the Yuan more focused on the north and Kublai Khan desired it until his death and only begrudgingly accepted his ministers's advice not to. Similarly, the descendents of Genghis Khan's brothers, who had fiefs in Manchuria and Inner Mongolia, could increasingly Sinicise themselves. I don't think it's possible (or desirable) for the Yuan to mess with them since it was basically illegal under dynastic law and their OTL revolt under Prince Nayan devastated the area which is the opposite of what we want. We'll also assume that the other Mongol khanates like the Chaghatai and Jochids do no better than OTL.

So when Yuan collapses, any Jurchen or Mongol state is too weak to reassert regional power (and might be mutually at odds) and the real power in the area are Han Chinese and Koreans (perhaps Sinicised Koreans) and the area falls into the hands of the successor dynasty. This successor dynasty never gets as conservative as Ming did and still remains fairly open. The settlement of the area continues, both officially and unofficially, since some ministers might notice that having a bunch of ethnic Han settlers in the area acts as a good hedge against the barbarians since there would be few or no attacks on northern China. Crushing the khanates in the west (Borjigin remnants and others) would also be a security measure and they could do something like the Dzunghar genocide for the same reason and acquire the borders OP specifies. We'll stop the scenario here and imagine this dynasty successfully limps its way to the modern age and reforms into a nation roughly as bureacratic and economically developed as modern China (still too conservative for quick economic development, but no deep pits to pull itself out of caused by the Warlord Era, Japanese invasion, and Maoist mismanagement).

If we're going to assume a 19th century POD, then I just don't think it's feasible since the Qing were pretty poor off in that era and can't easily block Russian expansion into that region without European aid, except Russia's main enemy Britain would prefer Russia wastes time and resources there instead of expanding into the Balkans or Central Asia.

So overall we could probably have significant settlement in those regions with a Chinese mindset like this and internal incentives. But I think the most distant regions will be inherently less settled, like for instance the shores of Lake Balkhash will be difficult to draw settlers to because of how remote they are and how Xinjiang is still not "filled up", so reaching Xinjiang's population density and resulting population (14.5 million) would be challenging. Outer Manchuria and Sakhalin have the problem of terrain--the seas around both freeze up in the winter and Outer Manchuria is extremely mountainous and only a few areas of good soil unlike the rest of Manchuria which has good farmland and very good soil. I doubt more than 20 million in that region. The area around Lake Baikal is very good for agriculture, although has many mountains, but access is difficult because one must pass through the Gobi Desert and nearby mountains to get there, so early settlement (which is crucial for high population density come modernity) is difficult at best. Maybe 15 million at most in the 1.5 million km2 surrounding it.

OP is incorrect that Yakutia has good soil--it does not since the chernozem belt that stretches east from Ukraine does not extend much further north than Baikal. There is a reason why the Russians settled Siberia the way they did, after all. While agriculture has been done in Yakutia since the 19th century (long daylight and warm summers helps, but the potential for early or late frosts is damaging), it seems to be fairly marginal at best and nowadays mostly limited to vegetables and gardens. It's also expensive to develop since it has high heating requirements (as it is the coldest place on Earth outside of Antarctica) and the permafrost requires very specific and expensive methods of building. So I doubt you'd get much more than 8-10 million in the entire stretch from the Lower Yenisei to the Kolyma to the Bering Strait, probably about half in Kamchatka which is a good place for an airport/seaport (northern great circle to the American West Coast) and has very good and mostly volcanic soils. At least if Kamchatka is settled early enough.

There is also a core population restriction of protein. The Chinese desire a high meat diet because it is prestigious and signifies wealth. Modern China is only about 75-80% self-sufficient in meat and this is by far China's largest food import (China is self-sufficient in grains and in recent years was the 6th largest exporter of rice). I suspect these marginal areas, some of which have very good soil for herding or growing crops for animal feed, economic logic will prefer this region be converted into pasture which is going to be less dense than a patchwork of farming towns so encourages migration to cities. These cities might be not even be in the region but larger cities in China proper, especially since local cities have unpleasant climate (too cold) and may be based on boom-bust industries like regional mining.

It goes without saying that this China would be a global superpower, and one probably less dependent on outside nations than modern China is. However, as noted it would still need to import a lot of food (meat) and the modern paradigm of global trade does mean it's cheaper (and beneficial to Chinese hegemony) to invest and import from foreign mines than develop yet more mines in Siberia.

There's too much corruption baked into the Imperial Chinese system to prevent a significant amount of emigration, and too many countries in the New World who couldn't be convinced (or lacked the capability) to ban Chinese immigration. For instance, Chinese kept coming into the US after the Chinese Exclusion Act because they would go through Canada (slightly less restrictive) or especially Mexico (no restrictions at all). Back in that era, it was common--and well-known to the authorities--that the Chinese would just walk across the border and if anyone asked they'd claim to be Mexicans.

Thing is settlement in Manchuria was deliberately restricted by the Qing. During the Yuan dynasty at least it had ethnic Han settlement, even if most of the outside settlement were Koreans (who fled, perished, or assimilated because of harsh winters, epidemic, and above all, the decades of war in the region because of the Red Turban Rebellion and Ming-Northern Yuan wars). Incidentally, Outer Manchuria is extremely agriculturally productive for wheat, barley, vegetables, etc.

Hokkaido was similar anyway in that it was off-limits to settle (outside of the southern Oshima Peninsula) since its feudal rulers preferred making it an extractive colony for furs, fish, and strictly controlled trade with the Ainu. I'd argue that if the Chinese ever controlled Hokkaido (extreme difficulties of that aside unless we're talking Tang Dynasty or earlier POD), they'd probably act similarly because it's a distant region for extraction and would let them do backdoor trade with Japan (kind of like how Sakhalin was used OTL).

In the case of the former, a huge number of Mongols died or fled during the chaos caused by the fall of Qing and imposition of Stalinist-influenced policies. This included nearly all the ethnic Han population of Mongolia, who made up over 10% of the population and in the capital Ulaanbaatar made up over 50% the population. There was an element of ethnic cleansing to this since the Mongol leadership believed the Han were going to demographically overwhelm them, even though Han settlement in Mongolia is fairly old since Karakorum back in the heyday of the Mongol Empire always had a large Han community.
Thank you very much for your very detailed reply! With such an early PoD, dating back to the 14th-century Yuan period, do you think it's possible to successfully send Han settlers until Western Siberia? Perhaps as far as the Ob and Tobol rivers? The demographic potential for the Han in Western Siberia would be excellent.
 
Thank you very much for your very detailed reply! With such an early PoD, dating back to the 14th-century Yuan period, do you think it's possible to successfully send Han settlers until Western Siberia? Perhaps as far as the Ob and Tobol rivers? The demographic potential for the Han in Western Siberia would be excellent.
Probably not because of distance and potential for too much conflict with native stages. Individual Chinese settlers have no motive to go that far until everything nearer is filled up, Chinese merchants are getting rich off goods that can be found in Manchuria or anywhere else in Siberia, and the government knows it will cause expensive foreign wars (against the Jochids and their successors). A lot of the land is too tribal and the locals would appeal to various Borjigin elites who in turn could use Genghis Khan's laws to make settlement even less appealing for Han Chinese.

The only way I could see it happening is if somehow 15th century Yuan was so successful at home that they tried western conquests in the name of reforming the Mongol Empire by subjugating the post-Mongol states (some of whom were still ruled by Borjigins, others not). But being successful at home means being a good Chinese dynasty and not trying to rebuild the Mongol Empire. Qing's conquests are more illustrative of what a successful Yuan might do. And their ministers would know from history that Kublai Khan nearly bankrupted the empire and caused a revolt due to his constant wars.

I'd like to imagine this expanded Chinese rule in Siberia would for many centuries resemble Central Asia in regards to nomads vs sedentary (although I don't know how feasible this is). The Chinese trading posts would extend into cities and there would be some farmland around them. The native peoples would visit these cities to trade and buy goods and even food in exchange for furs, deer antler, exotic birds (gyrfalcons from Sakhalin and remote parts of Manchuria were prized), etc. Later there may be indirect trade with Russia in the Baikal/Lake Balkhash area posts which might be fairly valuable (although rather one sided for many years since contrary to popular belief, Russian furs were only a minor export to China before the late 18th century).
 

Typho

Banned
There's too much corruption baked into the Imperial Chinese system to prevent a significant amount of emigration, and too many countries in the New World who couldn't be convinced (or lacked the capability) to ban Chinese immigration. For instance, Chinese kept coming into the US after the Chinese Exclusion Act because they would go through Canada (slightly less restrictive) or especially Mexico (no restrictions at all). Back in that era, it was common--and well-known to the authorities--that the Chinese would just walk across the border and if anyone asked they'd claim to be Mexicans.
Were the US border authorities corrupt? Because wouldn't they expect documents at least to prove they were mexican citizens? And how far did this era extend? Before 1924? Or for awhile after.
 
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