Something that I have wanted to ask for a long time is: could Mesoamerica have invented stuff that would ensure more enhanced technological and scientific advancement? I know that Mesoamerican societies were very advanced, but is there any way Mesoamerican civilizations could be far more technologically and scientifically advanced to the point the Spanish may not conquer them?
What technologies could be invented to ensure the most technologically and scientifically adavanced Mesoamerica?
- Thread starter HyperMuscularDemon
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Yes, that would develop Mesoamerica more effectively, but I am thinking more along the lines of objects and techniques. Take the wheel for example: how far could Mesoamerica be developed if the Mayans developed the wheelbarrow at 535 AD, the maize grinder at 735 AD, the pottery wheel at 800 AD, and the arch at 950 AD.
Yes I know. That is why I think if the Mesoamericans developed the wheel further, they would have developed more advanced technology. Like the wheelbarrow.
But Mesoamericans did not have pre Colombian horses. The wheelbarrow, on the other hand, could very well have developed and kickstarted trade in the region.
Much like the stirrups example that altwere pointed out, the wheelbarrow wasn't developed in Europe until the medieval period, many millennia after the invention of the wheel but merely a few centuries before the Spanish set sail for America. Hindsight unfortunately leads us to believe that one innovation should lead directly into the next, but history rarely offers such simple examples.
Yes yes I know. Still though, maybe a Mayan carpenter one day in Pre Colombian Mesoamerica decides to develop a more bigger toy for his kids. It works, but not after a few trials and mishaps, and one of those mishaps gets his mind rolling….
I never meant to imply that the American natives were unable to invent uses for the wheel. Using your hypothetical Mayan carpenter as a good example.
Some times it just takes an Ah ha in site. Also many thing may well have been invented at the wrong time for them to take off. Or just lost to the luck of the draw.
What happens in a small group where only one of two people know hao to make something and they die before passing the skills on?
Some times it just takes an Ah ha in site. Also many thing may well have been invented at the wrong time for them to take off. Or just lost to the luck of the draw.
What happens in a small group where only one of two people know hao to make something and they die before passing the skills on?
I've wondered about the wheelbarrow in the past, but I'm not sure it's the game changer some have suggested. If it was such a game changer, why didn't it spread from China across Eurasia sooner than it historically did? If, as some suggest, it was present in Ancient Greece or Rome, why did it vanish, if it was so useful?
As to other technologies, higher-temperature pottery kilns would have enabled some more breakthroughs in metallurgy, though they already had bronze IOTL, and I'm not sure there could be a trauma analogous to the Bronze Age Collapse to bring about an iron age.
I think the utility of a wheel in most of the Americas is questionable. Wheels also require larger and smoother roads, something much more difficult and costly to make in the jungles of Central America or the various mountain ranges. Wheelbarrows are also a fairly late advancement, happening several millennia after the wheel and the cart were developed, and the efficiency isn't immediately apparent.
My idea would be better shipbuilding and navigation. I think the biggest issue is that the American civilizations were geographically isolated, so there wasn't much diffusion of technology, ideas, and even crops across the continent in the same way that technologies could spread from China to Britain. With ships, maritime trade can connect the American civilizations. That way, there aren't a dozen different regions doing their own thing technology, but a cohesive network of American civilizations. Perhaps Cahokia could have survived if it had South American potatoes able to be farmed intensively in a changing climate, or maybe the Great Lakes could develop large metropolises based on chinampas.
My idea would be better shipbuilding and navigation. I think the biggest issue is that the American civilizations were geographically isolated, so there wasn't much diffusion of technology, ideas, and even crops across the continent in the same way that technologies could spread from China to Britain. With ships, maritime trade can connect the American civilizations. That way, there aren't a dozen different regions doing their own thing technology, but a cohesive network of American civilizations. Perhaps Cahokia could have survived if it had South American potatoes able to be farmed intensively in a changing climate, or maybe the Great Lakes could develop large metropolises based on chinampas.
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The first wheelbarrow appeared in 100 AD China, centuries after Ancient Greece. Plus, it took a long time to spread to Europe considering the time span and sociopolitical conditions from 200 AD onwards. In Mesoamerica, the wheelbarrow if invented would spread much much more quickly and result in far more booming trade, and trade was already impressive OTL.
Like an outrigger canoe. In my opinion, the best cases for an outrigger canoe to deliver the most technological advancement is in the Pacific Northwest, the Pacific coast is Mesoamerica and South America, and the Caribbean coast of Mesoamerica. Personally I think the Pacific coast of Mesoamerica and South America or the Caribbean coast of Mesoamerica are the best bet.If the outrigger canoe is invented somewhere in either one of those two areas, we can have various Native American civilizations trading with each other far more, which will surely advance technology and science.
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One question I keep posing myself after reading this post: the Aztec empire came into contact with the Spanish around 1520. The Japanese empire came into contact with the Europeans around 1600. The Aztec empire fell within weeks. The Japanese managed to give the Europeans just enough to keep them from mingling in their affairs until they famously 'pulled a Meiji'.
So what was it that Japan had that Mezoamerica didn't? Was it steel? Horses? Widespread literacy? Did it just come down to geography: Japan being an island or being close to China and Korea? Or was it just lucky to get involved with the Dutch and Portuguese rather than with the Spanish?
Or was it just bad timing that Cortez hit the Aztecs at just the right -or wrong- time when they had a simmering civil war just waiting for a spark?
Or did, like Jarred Diamond famously wrote, in the end it just came down to guns, germs and steel. And if so, if the Aztecs had at least two of these themselves: guns and steel, or steel and (resistance to) Germs, would they still get conquered?
So what was it that Japan had that Mezoamerica didn't? Was it steel? Horses? Widespread literacy? Did it just come down to geography: Japan being an island or being close to China and Korea? Or was it just lucky to get involved with the Dutch and Portuguese rather than with the Spanish?
Or was it just bad timing that Cortez hit the Aztecs at just the right -or wrong- time when they had a simmering civil war just waiting for a spark?
Or did, like Jarred Diamond famously wrote, in the end it just came down to guns, germs and steel. And if so, if the Aztecs had at least two of these themselves: guns and steel, or steel and (resistance to) Germs, would they still get conquered?
They had the benefit of being attached to Eurasia, which ensured that they had access to animals, crops, and technology starting from the Yayoi period onwards.
Japan was fairly politically unified. Even during the Sengoku Jidai, everybody still paid nominal fealty to the shogun and emperor. Look at how swiftly Hideyoshi organized a coordinated invasion of Korea barely 2 years after assuming power.
Mesoamerica was not. Even the Aztecs were a collection of city-states closer to a confederation than a modern nation-state, and they made a lot of enemies in their conquests, who would eagerly help overthrow the Aztecs.
Also, the Aztec timeframe is off. First contact was made with Juan de Grijalva in 1518, and even Cortes only launched his expedition in 1519. It took more than a year for Cortes to conquer Tenochtitlan after fleeing during La Noche Triste.
Ultimately, I would say most of the legwork was done by Cortes' native allies that had various grievances with the Aztecs. After all, the Aztecs were actually outnumbered in the siege of Tenochtitlan. The Spainards themselves weren't actually that large of a force or even that well equipped, given that most of their horses and artillery were lost in La Noche Triste.
Specifically regarding disease, the smallpox epidemic did start in 1520, but I think the epidemic was too recent to have significantly effected the conquest of the Aztecs. On the other hand, the Inca did fall into a civil war because of a smallpox epidemic, making Pizarro's job a lot easier.
So Japan had the advantage of relative political unity and disease resistance over the Aztecs. Another advantage Japan had was that the Portuguese were already humbled, losing several battles to the Ming. As a result, the Portuguese adopted a more mercantile approach with Japan instead of a hostile approach like they did with Malacca and Goa.
Needless to say, I have a lot of issues about Diamond's tale of the conquest of the Americas.
Yea that would be nice but how would the Mesoamericans come up with such a theory?