What is the most territory Germany could get away with after unconditional surrender in WW2?

[Lalli]

Perhaps Russia could gift East Germany the sudentenland. For pring supportive during the Czech spring or something.

Munich Agreement was seen as mistake by everybody after break out of WW2. Everybody agreed that Czechoslovakia would get that back.

And allowing/giving Sudetenland to East Germany would be great way to make Czechs really mad. No that Soviets couldn't handle them but why cause problems what are not needed?

 

[jenalysis]

If you have an allied victory in a continuation war, Germany could get more Eastern Territory, with Poland and Ukraine also expanding east.

 

[Jurgen Wullenwever]

A quick look on the internet gives that the Western plans by Churchill, Roosevelt and Morgenthau all included ethnic cleansing of East Prussia, although Pomerania and Silesia were more German than in our reality.

Churchill's plan even gave Germany Hungary and Transcarpathia, so that might be the largest extent.

 

[TheKutKu]

Weimar borders with an independent danzig that could get democratically united many, many decades down the line.

This probably requires an unconditional surrender against only the WAllies, aka French/English/American troops in Berlin without significant soviet involvement

 

[The Laughing Hyenas]

I think that when will have a LOT to do with it. The sooner, the better. If there had been a speech from Berlin in March of 1940 saying that Hitler, Goering, Goebbels and the rest of the Nazi elite have been shot and that Germany would like an immediate cease fire to sort things out, things would have been a whole lot friendlier. The USSR would not have been directly involved. The Holocaust would have barely begun and would have been swept under the rug.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Problem is, when Germany's situation is good enough to request 1939 borders Germany would not look for surrender, even conditional one.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

I think that when will have a LOT to do with it. The sooner, the better. If there had been a speech from Berlin in March of 1940 saying that Hitler, Goering, Goebbels and the rest of the Nazi elite have been shot and that Germany would like an immediate cease fire to sort things out, things would have been a whole lot friendlier. The USSR would not have been directly involved. The Holocaust would have barely begun and would have been swept under the rug.

That would be far from unconditional surrender OP asked for.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

I think the only way that an utterly defeated Germany keeps East Prussia is if the Soviet Union outright collapses and the Western Allies (plus post-Fascist Italy) win the war on their own.

 

[Reflection]

Naturally Germany loses everything what it got under nazi regime so Anchluss and Munich Agreement are cancelled.

East Prussia would be gone too. Probably Germany could keep parts of Silesia and Pommerania. So maximum would be OTL Germany + Pomerania nd perhaps half of Silesia.

I take it that both parts would be part of East Germany during the Cold War, however, as they're located eastward and that's likely how the USSR could justify them keeping that land... because they're going to be under the control of Soviet-backed communists. They would only be part of the FRG proper upon reunification.

 

[jmc247]

The TL you need is Soviets stuck fighting over Ukraine in late 45, while a later D-Day bogs down somewhat, while atom bombs level German cities.

Eventually the WAllies may signal to the German military via third party the post war borders if they give up that they might sign onto.

 

[nacaclanga]

The most important motivation for giving the UdSSR so much was to bribe them into attacing Japan (Which the Sowjets gave into only very late).

The scenarior here, would be a) A Pazifik war going very badly for the Japanese or b) Have them opt against the Pearl Habour attac and settel for invading Russias soft underbelly for oil instead.

The last one would result in a weaker SU, that wont be able to make much territorial demands.

 

[David T]

Until late in the war, Stalin seems to have regarded the Oder as sufficient "compensation" for Poland for its losses in the east, so the Oder-western Neisse line was not inevitable.

 

[Saci]

I can see Germany keeping more of Poland in a situation where there's no Barbarossa, like if german intel about the size of the soviet army is more accurate. Hitler doesn't launch it but end up losing the war on the West with entrance of the United States. Let's say the war ends by 1946 or 47. The USSR enters the war when the german army is collapsing and just occupies the region. Since the soviets weren't victims of colossal loses and with a militant United States with a foot on Europe, the soviets prop up a german government consisting of it's pre war border with the addition of upper silesia and pomerelia. Poznan likely goes to Poland but if the soviets reach Czech lands earlier than the Allies, I can see at least the eastern sudetenland remaining with this "East Germany".

 

[Arkenfolm]

Only way (East) Germany keeps part of the Sudetenland is if Czechoslovakia ends up in the Western sphere, and honestly I could see the country being totally partitioned in that case between a communist Slovakia and a pro-West (or neutral) Czech Republic.

 

[The Laughing Hyenas]

That would be far from unconditional surrender OP asked for.

The point was intended to be that the point of no return came very quickly. Once Germany invaded Belgium and France, there was no way to roll things back. Before that, with Hitler's head on a pike and a whole bunch of "We're Sorry" then maybe they could try to roll back to where they were before invading Poland.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

I think the only way that an utterly defeated Germany keeps East Prussia is if the Soviet Union outright collapses and the Western Allies (plus post-Fascist Italy) win the war on their own.

Even then WAllies are unlikely to refuse their Polish allies East Prussia, as they too have seen Corridor as possible source of future conflicts.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Even then WAllies are unlikely to refuse their Polish allies East Prussia, as they too have seen Corridor as possible source of future conflicts.

Poland probably wouldn't be strong enough to hold onto East Prussia in her own right and forcibly displacing millions of Germans would be an immense undertaking for them - remember this is scenario where the Soviet Union has collapsed and victory came in the West so East Prussia is probably the most intact part of Germany.

Danzig probably does go definitely to Poland though along with her pre-war borders.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Poland probably wouldn't be strong enough to hold onto East Prussia in her own right and forcibly displacing millions of Germans would be an immense undertaking for them -

In scenario, when Germany is crushed to the point of unconditiinal surrender? Nope.

And Czechs expelled Sudeten Germans (more numerous than East Prussian Germans) on their own-what is imposdible about this?

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

In scenario, when Germany is crushed to the point of unconditiinal surrender? Nope.

And Czechs expelled Sudeten Germans (more numerous than East Prussian Germans) on their own-what is imposdible about this?

Japan surrendered unconditionally without Allied boots on the main islands so I don't think it's impossible Germany does likewise without literally every square inch of the country being occupied first. If Hitler is dead and the Americans and British have taken Berlin (or perhaps even before then) I think a German government would surrender even if (as is likely) the East is intact.

The Czechs also expelled the Sudenten Germans from their own country. In this scenario you are looking at a presumably ruined Poland forcibly annexing foreign territory and then expelling the inhabitants without the justification of territorial compensation as there was in OTL.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Japan surrendered unconditionally without Allied boots on the main islands

After being nuked, and lost Sakhalin and Taiwan. And Japanese were ethnically cleansed from lost territories.