What is the most territory Germany could get away with after unconditional surrender in WW2?

NAF

With a POD of the Fall of France, what is the most territory Germany could hold by the modern day after still suffering total defeat in WW2?

For example, what lands that they did not get OTL are merely difficult to keep, and what lands are absolutely off the table? Austria, Silesia, and Pomerania are of particular interest. Is it ASB for Germany to keep, for example, its Treaty of Versailles borders minus East Prussia and concessions in Silesia? I'm assuming a worse Soviet performance is necessary, correct?
 

Lalli

Naturally Germany loses everything what it got under nazi regime so Anchluss and Munich Agreement are cancelled.

East Prussia would be gone too. Probably Germany could keep parts of Silesia and Pommerania. So maximum would be OTL Germany + Pomerania nd perhaps half of Silesia.
 

NoMommsen

NAF said:
1.) With a POD of the Fall of France, ...

I'm assuming a worse Soviet performance is necessary, correct?
Click to expand...
ad 1.)
A rather ... general POD definition as there'a a plethora of possible POD all leading to myriads of possible course of a different WW 2.
Such changes my or may not include the removal of Hitler in 1943(IIRC) with a non-working bomb in his plane towards the eastern front or a succsessful operation Walküre or even to some prior moment.
Such changes may include a postponement of Barbarossa with a possible "Mediterrainian First" or another attempt of "Adlertag" and a Sealion delayed to 1941 or a "Moscow First" during early Barbarossa letting the Ukraine aside at first or a "Leningrad First" instead "Taifun" or ...
But generally I would agree a worse or less 'intense' soviet performane and participation would very helpfull.

... there are MANY ways to change the course and outcome of a different WW 2.

With some of these changes you might get a prolongation of the war with very different front lines at 'defeat' which might also be a surrender 'only' to the western allies.
Even with Stalin as well within the Allies camp the 'last' front line might still be very different and rather important for different postwar borders and 'influential zones' as well as carved up by the allies.
Not to forget that the interallied 'plans' and negotiations for a post-victory

IMHO in the 'best' (for the german people) outcome possible would be a return to weimarian borders.
... not withstanding under whatever political terms like demilitarization, administrative stzructures, 'overlooking' and partizipating in daily affairs by allied institutions, etc..
 
Last edited:
Albidoom

Albidoom

NAF said:
I'm assuming a worse Soviet performance is necessary, correct?
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, it also depends on what Stalin wants. If for some reason he decides to have a bigger soviet occupation zone in Germany (and in extrapolation having a bigger GDR puppet) at the expense of Polands' western borders not getting changed as much as they did OTL then who is going to stop him?
Of course the big issue on this is how and why would Stalin change his mind (German communists in soviet exile having been able to suck up to Stalin enough, or something like that)
 

kham_coc

Banned
Albidoom said:
Of course the big issue on this is how and why would Stalin change his mind (German communists in soviet exile having been able to suck up to Stalin enough, or something like that)
Click to expand...
Maybe, Whermacht coup, Allies won't make peace, and the deal the Germans get out of the Soviets is better?
After all if the Germans say in 43-44 (no dday obvi) you can have all of Europe as long as we get to keep the ethnically German lands?
 

nacaclanga

I would say that there is a real chance that Germany could keep it's prewar territory if a) Japan is defeated much faster or in war with the UdSSR and b) nucleat bomb is ready earlier.
 

Lalli

nacaclanga said:
I would say that there is a real chance that Germany could keep it's prewar territory if a) Japan is defeated much faster or in war with the UdSSR and b) nucleat bomb is ready earlier.
Click to expand...

There is not way how Germany could keep Sudeteland. Probably they are not allowed to keep Austria either.
 
Clandango

Clandango

Jurgen Wullenwever said:
Why must they lose East Prussia?
Click to expand...
The Russians wanted a warm water port and spies told them that Churchill was alright with giving it to them, so they went for that in the negotiations. It also came in with the fiction that the Baltic states wouldn’t be annexed by the Soviets. I don’t believe it was terms or anything, there was just the stated aim that there would be free elections throughout Central and Eastern Europe.
 

Jan Olbracht

HelloThere said:
Because Stalins needs something to give to Poland after he annexed their interwar eastern territories and he wants a warm water port. It's the same reason Germany will probably lose most of it's territory east of the Oder-Neiße.
Click to expand...

Warm water port is a myth, because Baltic Sea near coast of East Prussia used to freeze in winter 80 years ago.
 

Jimbo808

Perhaps Russia could gift East Germany the sudentenland. For pring supportive during the Czech spring or something.
 
HelloThere

HelloThere

Jimbo808 said:
Perhaps Russia could gift East Germany the sudentenland. For pring supportive during the Czech spring or something.
Click to expand...
Outright annexation was pretty much condemned after WW2. And East Germany getting former Reich territory for sending German troops into Czechoslovakia would be a *really* bad look.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top