What is Before 1900's "Sealion"?

A Confederate victory is possible under the right circumstance that did exist in real life (such as in the first two years of the war before Union really mobilized its resources) but I think a victorious CSA becoming a great power that abolishes slavery in a relatively quick manner is nonsense.
 
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A Confederate victory is possible under the right circumstance (such as in the first two years of the war) but I think a victorious CSA becoming a a great power that abolishes slavery in a relatively quick manner is nonsense.

In fact, a Confederate government with a government that has direct continuity to the one that revolted against the US will, more likely than not, fail to abolish slavery in all its existence until the 1920s or so.

The more I look at it, a prosperous Confederacy is extremely implausible. The fact was, it was a nation supported by a small elite of slaveocrats that ruled over almost everyone and were the only people allowed to vote. More likely than not, the Confederacy could see a revolution.
 
In fact, a Confederate government with a government that has direct continuity to the one that revolted against the US will, more likely than not, fail to abolish slavery in all its existence until the 1920s or so.

The more I look at it, a prosperous Confederacy is extremely implausible. The fact was, it was a nation supported by a small elite of slaveocrats that ruled over almost everyone and were the only people allowed to vote. More likely than not, the Confederacy could see a revolution.
Yeah, the most I can see is that it abolishes slavery put introduces measures that still ensure de facto enslavement of Blacks (so like Jim Crow from OTL but likely even worse)

And the whole makeup of an independent Confederacy I don't think has the conditions to make a great power.
 
TBH a Confederacy that ends up as anything more than a balkanized, dirt poor oligarchic banana republic rump state with all its industry owned by foreign powers seems like a Sealion to me.

Not foreign powers per se. An American domination of its industry is the probable result of this.
 

Deleted member 67076

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Seriously its built like a shitty Latin American country except with no way for its huddled masses to rise up through the ranks nor any desire to change. I mean at best I see a very bloody revolution that ends with a caudillo centralizing the shit out of the state and breaking the back of the planters, but the result of that is almost certainly total financial collapse, population reduction, and heavy handed land reform. Still leaves the problem of all those slaves and what to do with them...

Not foreign powers per se. An American domination of its industry is the probable result of this.
I love the irony of becoming a colony to Yankee industrialists. Wonder if by 1920 the US would occupy Confederate customs houses and blatantly ignore their sovereignty as the Confederate government scrounges for whatever cash it needs to pay its underfunded bureaucrats and bloated military.
 
I think that the key determinate between the unlikly that happens (Bonaparte becoming Napoleon I, Ghengis Khan, the Rise of Rome) is that while they were quite wildly successful, there's nothing unusual about their acts in the time they were happening. Rome is a town on the Tiber... with uncommon skills at utilizing every bit of available manpower and presenting a united front to outsiders, at least compared to its neighbors. It's easy to see how that snowballs into an Empire. Bonaparte is a talented man with specialist training, facing an army that has suddenly had command opened to the talents, and was desperate for specialists - talent and training means he will rise. The Mongols were very good at step-nomadism : and a talented leader willing to fold other tribes in could, and did, go far with it.

Many early-Medieval-Caliphate-as-Borg scenarios require groups of Berber and Arabian tribes to act with the motivations of Front National scare pamphlet. These motives and drives would have been alien to them: mostly, they were looking for better land, plunder, and the chance to find a place to set themselves up on top. They don't have the time machine to realize what they really want is Eurarabia, and the oppression of redditors yet unborn. When they've carved out their niche in a more hospitable area, they'll stop.

In the Civil war scenario, Lord Palmerston wants a thriving British Empire (that's hopefully quieter than 1857-1858....). He needs to protect Britian's freedom of navigation. He'll do a lot for that. A whole lot. He does not have an inkling of the eternal Pax Britannica certain to happen (if it's that certain) if the United States is cut in two. Nor does he have an altruistic desire to start a lengthy and expensive war that will compromise British interests and prosperity for the sake of a Lost Cause that will not exist until the 1880s. He is stuck with the motivations he has in his time, which can cause a plausible war. But the scenarios for many of these wars that don't draw on the existing motivations are risible, as are the ones that turn real and profound advantages Britain had into super powers.

The difference between the Borg Caliphite and Lost Cause scenarios and the actual rises of Temjin, Bonaparte, and Rome is that the ones that happened all flowed from things in their social and political environment. ATL's flowing from a similar sources seem highly believable. Ones that require the parties to be play actors in the political dramas of centuries or millennia hence are less so.
 
:kissingheart:XD

Seriously its built like a shitty Latin American country except with no way for its huddled masses to rise up through the ranks nor any desire to change. I mean at best I see a very bloody revolution that ends with a caudillo centralizing the shit out of the state and breaking the back of the planters, but the result of that is almost certainly total financial collapse, population reduction, and heavy handed land reform. Still leaves the problem of all those slaves and what to do with them...


I love the irony of becoming a colony to Yankee industrialists. Wonder if by 1920 the US would occupy Confederate customs houses and blatantly ignore their sovereignty as the Confederate government scrounges for whatever cash it needs to pay its underfunded bureaucrats and bloated military.

What I always think of a surviving South is that yes, it's likely to be Paraguay. Probably for a lot of the same kind of enthusiasts who went to OTL Paraguay and Argentina from Middle Europe. Because remember, what's the big intellectual trend of the latter 19th Century and early 20th? Eugenics! Eugenics everywhere, Eugenics to the left of you, Eugenics to the right, and the American South, with its legal chattel slavery, will be the mouth of hell every loony who wants to play along will ride into. (Don't know why I mirrored Tennyson there.) The South will be poor and shitty - but massively edgy and appealing to any would be uber-mensch.
 

Deleted member 67076

What I always think of a surviving South is that yes, it's likely to be Paraguay. Probably for a lot of the same kind of enthusiasts who went to OTL Paraguay and Argentina from Middle Europe. Because remember, what's the big intellectual trend of the latter 19th Century and early 20th? Eugenics! Eugenics everywhere, Eugenics to the left of you, Eugenics to the right, and the American South, with its legal chattel slavery, will be the mouth of hell every loony who wants to play along will ride into. (Don't know why I mirrored Tennyson there.) The South will be poor and shitty - but massively edgy and appealing to any would be uber-mensch.
Will it also get 90% of its male population killed in a brutal war it can't win against 3 neighbors that outclassed it in every way? :openedeyewink:
 
TBH a Confederacy that ends up as anything more than a balkanized, dirt poor oligarchic banana republic rump state with all its industry owned by foreign powers seems like a Sealion to me.
What about a Confederacy simply reconquered 10-20 years after the ACW?
 
My pre-1900 Sealion is "Justinian's conquests all stick and he successfully restores the Roman Empire in a lasting way."

I'd generalize further and say that the "Rome conquers Persia and annexes it" thing is the equivalent of Sealion. A Roman conquest of India is the equivalent of the Nazis invading the US.
 
I'd generalize further and say that the "Rome conquers Persia and annexes it" thing is the equivalent of Sealion. A Roman conquest of India is the equivalent of the Nazis invading the US.

Also Alexander's empire stabilizing with it's full territory or near that. That mess was never going to last more than a decade.
 
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