What is Before 1900's "Sealion"?
- Thread starter Aaaaasima
- Start date
Get Gedik Pasha a bit better supplied in 1481 and it would be plausible to have Ottoman in the Two Sicilies and perhaps Sardinia as well.
Zhang He goes east seeking Fusang and finds Alaska, Cascadia, and California?
Maybe have them coordinate more or have Saladin die early in his career?
They might be able to take and colonize larger islands like Taiwan or any of the Phillippines or Malaysia/Indonesia under the right circumstances though military conquest without significant bases/infrastructure will not be very plausible
Less than a "Southern Victory" being ASB - it really isn't - it's more that "the type of Southern Victory acceptable to those with the most emotional stake in that victory" are ASB, or perhaps "the reasons for same" are ASB.
A victory of exhaustion, producing a CSA that contains most (but not all) of the seceded states could happen, possibly aided by a European intervention is possible, that would have led to a nasty slave holding export state that in a European aid scenario is in hock to that state.
But this is not Lee rolling his victorious army into New York City as the South prior to the CSA becoming a race-blind utopia before the a 20th Century where feats of Southern Valour win every large war.
A Southern Victory gets its ASB reputations because of it being the favorite vessel of some modern political trends; not because a CSA win is impossible. It's just the historical CSA is so very inconvenient, and curing its inconveniences makes it ahistorical.
A victory of exhaustion, producing a CSA that contains most (but not all) of the seceded states could happen, possibly aided by a European intervention is possible, that would have led to a nasty slave holding export state that in a European aid scenario is in hock to that state.
But this is not Lee rolling his victorious army into New York City as the South prior to the CSA becoming a race-blind utopia before the a 20th Century where feats of Southern Valour win every large war.
A Southern Victory gets its ASB reputations because of it being the favorite vessel of some modern political trends; not because a CSA win is impossible. It's just the historical CSA is so very inconvenient, and curing its inconveniences makes it ahistorical.
I'm part of the response sometimes. I just insist that reasons for a British intervention be ones that existed in 1861-62, and not ones that require a preternatural knowledge of future events or an altruistic devotion to Southern Independence. Intervention is possible - but it's a steep hill to climb, where both parties have plenty of paths to deescalation, and the principals on both sides are smart men with sets of interests that can be met without a war.
I also agree, Temujin becoming the Great Khan? Unrealistic? Improbable? But not impossible!
Buenoparte becoming Napoleon, Conqueror of Europe? Unrealistic and improbable! But fact!
I have a Southern Victory one https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...d-times-there-are-not-forgotten-redux.384495/ unlike most it turns out poorly for the South in the long run. It gets beaten by Mexico when they try to invade it and eventually wind up being a virtual colony of the US.
samcster94
Banned
A romance language written in Arabic script(Spanish in Arabic script in the Middle Ages OTL is a thing) would be used.
samcster94
Banned
Personally, I think any Confederacy that wins with Lost Cause assumptions easily falls here. The Confederacy abolishing slavery immediately after the war is like East Germany abolishing Communism in the 1950's. Dixieland is built on an evil principle to begin with.
Although not common, an Argentina that is a first tier industrialized country and major military power is another bad cliche.
Any idealized society of any kind(like the Romanovs are idealized and suddenly more progressive), anybody except China industrializing before the Europeans, parallelism taken to an extreme, etc...
Although not common, an Argentina that is a first tier industrialized country and major military power is another bad cliche.
Any idealized society of any kind(like the Romanovs are idealized and suddenly more progressive), anybody except China industrializing before the Europeans, parallelism taken to an extreme, etc...
But, as I take it, Arabic was increasing in commonality among the classes, as shown by @Planet of Hats here.
samcster94
Banned
indeed(Egypt shifted from Coptic, descended from its old language, to Arabic this way)
I'd disagree with most of the trends mentioned here (i still think an Ottoman Italy, a southern victory in the Civil War, a mongol invasion of Europe, and various nations pulling a Meiji are reasonable).
However, one bad trend i often see is Carthage becoming an expansionist empire just like Rome. I mean, sure, they could capture strategic possessions for commerce such as most mediterranean islands and a chunk of Iberia, but it was not within Carthage's mentality to compare their state to an expanding eagle.
Another improbable one i see is nordic paganism somehow organizing in the middle ages and surviving christian expansion.
However, one bad trend i often see is Carthage becoming an expansionist empire just like Rome. I mean, sure, they could capture strategic possessions for commerce such as most mediterranean islands and a chunk of Iberia, but it was not within Carthage's mentality to compare their state to an expanding eagle.
Another improbable one i see is nordic paganism somehow organizing in the middle ages and surviving christian expansion.
Temporarily, they maybe could have, although logistics would make it unlikely (and even more unlikely that they'd be able to hold it for any length of time). Plus, European tactics and siegecraft were advancing rapidly during the late fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries, so any advantage the Ottomans had over their opponents would have been rapidly eroded.
Argentina as an economic and military power is quite possible. Have immigration from europe continue during the first world war, and military expansion in either Uruguay, Paraguay or Chile, and you're 3/4ths there.
samcster94
Banned
If there are any people who know German on here, at least request them to write said timelines.Austria not getting shit on
Very few timelines that are Austria-focused or involve the Habsburgs surviving as rulers of Austria, Bohemia and Hungary.
I agree with that. Southern mainland Italy ruled by the Arabs as an extension of their preexisting territories in Sicily is entirely plausible, but not the Ottomans doing so.
Planet of Hats
Donor
In fact they did hold Septimania for about 40 to 50 years. As late as the 900s the Umayyads still held a colony at Fraxinet near Provence. It's entirely possible to have more competent leaders on the Muslim side or less competent ones on the French side and have a more lasting Muslim impact in the south of France.
A huge rollicking Muslim conquest of France is much harder.