The RAF doesn't currently have AWACS and unless the battle takes place over UK airspace it doesn't have ground radar either. Unless there's something I haven't read about.
What if these 2 aircraft meet in combat ….
- Thread starter Monk78
- Start date
Su-15P would be pretty ineffective against the F1 04 at the ground level unless they use mk 1 eyeball with R60 and gunpods with which they were retrofitted in the late 1970My Guess would be the SU15’s would have some form of GCI and would try and surprise the F104G’s. I don’t know when / if the F104G’s had radar warning gear (I presume they would have had it at some point.)
It is also unclear to me how effective a SU15 would have been vs a low flying F104.
As far as I know the F104G had access to Aim9’s and the 20mm M61 so presumably they would have been able to pose a threat to a SU15 although I don’t know what air to air weapons they would have carried on a strike mission where they might possibly have encountered a forward deployed Su15.
I think a lot of “what if’s” would need to fall into place to actually get a F104 / SU15 dog fight
Su-15TM avionics were more advanced specially in detecting targets low level, but even then it would not be ideal
Most likely scenario is a draw both aircraft will escape if they are caught at a disadvantage , both will avoid dogfights and su-15 may mission kill the f-104
Likely the F-101 ! what a beautiful lady she was , esp the “love handles “
RN F4 vs an Argentine Mirage III/Dagger in an HMS Eagle/Ark Royal at the Falklands alt history.
I assume the F4 radar makes it the winner but the Argentine pilots were no slouches
I assume the F4 radar makes it the winner but the Argentine pilots were no slouches
I hear that the Meteor is refereed to as 'the cheat switch' or some such as it is so good
As much as I'm a Typhoon fan, and I believe that in a dogfight it'd beat any F-35 variant, I can't see it beating a Raptor in most situations. The F-22 will almost certainly see the Typhoon first with its own AESA LPI radar (APG-77V1). No Typhoons yet have AESA, and although the Captor is great for a mechanical radar, it is now outdated.I do believe it's LPI, but it is likely less LPI than the APG-77V1. The IRST (PIRATE) will probably be the only hope of detection that the Typhoon has, and it's worth noting that the Raptor does reportedly have a reduced heat signature, as well as its low RCS. Clouds and other atmospheric conditions can reduce with range further, as will the fact that the F-22 will be head-on with the Typhoon, and due to supercruise, doesn't have to use afterburners.
Bottom line is that the Typhoon probably won't detect the F-22 prior to its missiles being launched. Maybe it'll get a hit off the Raptor's weapons bay opening.
It's also worth noting that the Raptor can carry x6 AIM-120s internally (plus x2 AIM-9Xs). IIRC, an exercise between the UK, US, and French (Atlantic Trident?) apparently demonstrated that 2-3 AAMs are required to destroy a modern fast jet in a contested environment with ECM, decoys, etc.
The only time I can see a Eurofighter having an advantage is when the F-22 is in a IRM only battle - as you stated, the ASRAAM does out range even the latest AIM-9X; plus the AIM-132A has been proven to destroy a target 180 degrees behind the firing fighter. Worst case scenario here should be a mutual kill.
In a guns only dogfight, the Raptor probably has a slight advantage due to thrust vectoring, but it'll certainly come down to pilot skill over anything.
My bad, you are right, it is 6 BVR missiles internally, not 4.
Thing is, Typhoons are on record as having beaten F22s at close quarters in several instances in exercises such as Red Flag. RAF and Luftwaffe ones (not sure about the Italians). Also, high alpha thrust vectoring stunts/dynamic decelerations are for movies and air shows. Use it in a real fight and you lose so much energy that it puts you in a bad position (Pilots don't keep going on about speed being life for no reason).
Typhoons can supercruise* as well, though again, the F22 has a small advantage (I've heard suggestion of c. Mach 1.4-1.5 for the Typhoon, 1.6+ for the F22).
Likewise, the IRST can pick up the friction heating of the aircraft skin, not just the engine exhaust (which is the time supercruise is not an advantage).
I'm not disputing that the F22 has the advantage BVR, I'm just trying to point out it is not as one sided as people are claiming.
*Fun fact. The English Electric Lightning and Concorde could both supercruise long before it became fashionable. The TSR2 probably could too (a book I have read about it claims that on a test flight the TSR2 comfortably broke the sound barrier on dry thrust).
I thought there were some other Cold War era fighters that could somewhat super cruise as well at least under some conditions ?
I seem to recall reading accounts of the F106 and some F104’s being able to super cruise. I wouldn’t be surprised if other aircraft could also Super Cruise.
Last edited:
How about Indonesia not backing down and offering an alternate route for HMS Victorious and her escorts to use during the Sunda Straits Crisis in Sept. 1964. You would then get Indonesian MiG19 or MiG 21s (not sure which units would be deployed to the confrontation zone) against the Sea Vixens off the Victorious.
Not sure who would come out on top. MiG’s speed are superior to that of the Sea Vixen but on the otherhand the Sea Vixen has superior electronics and missiles. Whether the Indonesian pilots had the skill and motivation to effectively utilize their speed advantage is an open question as is the effectiveness of the Firestreak missiles (could only engage aircraft from behind and only if there weren’t any clouds). Not to mention once the missiles have been expended Sea Vixen has only some unguided air to air rockets (anti bomber weapon never designed for fighter combat) whereas the MiGs have cannon. Would not be a pleasant flying experience for the FAA pilots if it ever got to that point.
Not sure who would come out on top. MiG’s speed are superior to that of the Sea Vixen but on the otherhand the Sea Vixen has superior electronics and missiles. Whether the Indonesian pilots had the skill and motivation to effectively utilize their speed advantage is an open question as is the effectiveness of the Firestreak missiles (could only engage aircraft from behind and only if there weren’t any clouds). Not to mention once the missiles have been expended Sea Vixen has only some unguided air to air rockets (anti bomber weapon never designed for fighter combat) whereas the MiGs have cannon. Would not be a pleasant flying experience for the FAA pilots if it ever got to that point.
I don’t believe the MirageIIIC had what would be considered “look down/ shoot down” radars and missiles by today’s standards ? So, maybe the Mig27 jettisons its bombs as a precaution and stays at low level while trying to out run the Mirage as it tries to engage with guns or missiles ?
Perhaps if the bomb load was a single nuke the pilot might keep going towards the target and not jettison it while trying to avoid being shot down ?
Last edited:
What would the Migs be trying to do and or why would the RN want to shoot them down ? Would the Migs be flying anti ship strikes ? Trying to intercept RN Strikes air strikes etc ?
Fighter vs Fighter combat just for the sake of trying to shoot each other down seems a bit unlikely to me in this context but I suppose it could have happened ? (Maybe both sides fly fighter sweeps and they bump into each other ?)
Polikarpov I-153 Bi-Plane vs Mil Mi-24 Helicopter Gunship (no air to air missiles ).
M-24 is providing ground support for Russian infantry in Chechnya and the Chechens found a I-153 with ammo for its rockets and machine guns, got it to work, and is flying it at the distracted Mi-24.
M-24 is providing ground support for Russian infantry in Chechnya and the Chechens found a I-153 with ammo for its rockets and machine guns, got it to work, and is flying it at the distracted Mi-24.
Last edited:
Giant Man Eating Rabbits
Banned
PZL.50 v Bf-109 in Polish Campaign 1939
I was imagining if Poland had been able to get a couple hundred of these into service
en.wikipedia.org
I was imagining if Poland had been able to get a couple hundred of these into service
PZL.50 Jastrząb - Wikipedia
I would say the Me-109 would win most engagements, better speed and weaponry plus the German pilots had better air combat doctrine from their SCW experience.PZL.50 v Bf-109 in Polish Campaign 1939
I was imagining if Poland had been able to get a couple hundred of these into service
PZL.50 Jastrząb - Wikipedia