What if the Yongle Emperor chose his second son as heir?

[Emperor RyRy]

The Yongle Emperor wanted to chose his second son as heir to the Great Ming, but due to the advice of one advisor (when the rest said "hell yes your second son is the bomb-diggity") he chose his eldest, who was notoriously against the eunuchs.

While the eunuchs in power may have stopped the Emperor from controlling the Middle Kingdom, it definitely wasn't bad compared to the inward perfection that would follow when the Yongle's eldest son took the mantle.

So what would happen if the second son, who was more of a warrior-athlete than a thinker like his brother, had been named Emperor? While I don't doubt that the Treasure Fleet would have been seriously restricted, maybe it would have kept going?

 

[profxyz]

While the eunuchs in power may have stopped the Emperor from controlling the Middle Kingdom, it definitely wasn't bad compared to the inward perfection that would follow when the Yongle's eldest son took the mantle.

I don't think Hongxi himself should be made solely responsible for the 'inward perfection' of the Ming Dynasty. The roots of that probably lie just as much in the traditional Chinese conception of the world, various state policies as well as the continued animosity of the Mongols.

Additionally, their historical reputation aside, eunuchs were used because they allowed the Emperor to bypass the fractious and gridlocked imperial bureaucracy, which so often prevented the Emperor from carrying out his duties (as he conceived of them). So eunuchs actually helped extend the Emperor's direct control over the Middle Kingdom, rather than decrease it: contrary to Chinese historiography, the use of eunuchs did not necessary imply a 'bad' Emperor. I agree that the 2nd son would have made greater use of eunuchs because his militant policies would definitely have been stalled by the bureaucrats.

So what would happen if the second son, who was more of a warrior-athlete than a thinker like his brother, had been named Emperor? While I don't doubt that the Treasure Fleet would have been seriously restricted, maybe it would have kept going?

I would have thought that the Treasure Fleet would also have met its ignominious end had Zhu Gaozhi became Emperor, simply because the resources needed to fight the Mongols would have required vast Ming resources which the fleet was eating up. To an extent Zheng He's fleet was really just supported by the megalomania and paranoia of Yongle, so once the man was gone there really wasn't much point in keeping it around.

 

[Emperor RyRy]

I don't think Hongxi himself should be made solely responsible for the 'inward perfection' of the Ming Dynasty. The roots of that probably lie just as much in the traditional Chinese conception of the world, various state policies as well as the continued animosity of the Mongols.

Additionally, their historical reputation aside, eunuchs were used because they allowed the Emperor to bypass the fractious and gridlocked imperial bureaucracy, which so often prevented the Emperor from carrying out his duties (as he conceived of them). So eunuchs actually helped extend the Emperor's direct control over the Middle Kingdom, rather than decrease it: contrary to Chinese historiography, the use of eunuchs did not necessary imply a 'bad' Emperor. I agree that the 2nd son would have made greater use of eunuchs because his militant policies would definitely have been stalled by the bureaucrats.



I would have thought that the Treasure Fleet would also have met its ignominious end had Zhu Gaozhi became Emperor, simply because the resources needed to fight the Mongols would have required vast Ming resources which the fleet was eating up. To an extent Zheng He's fleet was really just supported by the megalomania and paranoia of Yongle, so once the man was gone there really wasn't much point in keeping it around.

Huh.

Well, I know that the second son (Gaozhi?) was always trying to get his father's respect, even before the Yongle Emperor named his eldest son as heir, so maybe, to "honor" his father, he at least keeps some sort of government fleet going around? Obviously, since Gaozhi (I'll just use it) was a warrior, he'd want to fight the Mongols and Oirat Horde. But maybe he still allows captains to trade far and wide?

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

I've come across the suggestions that Yongle's dislike of his eldest son was slightly mollified by his like for his grandson, the future Emperor Xuande. So that factor, combined with primogeniture principles, tilts the scales back to Yongle's first sons, just a bit.

I don't think an alternate succession would have a huge effect. While eunuchs were powerful in the Yongle era, they reached even greater levels of power in the Zhengtong or Jiajing eras in large part due to youth and personality of the reigning monarch. Those factors might appear again even if Yongle selects an alternate succession.

 

[profxyz]

Well, I know that the second son (Gaozhi?) was always trying to get his father's respect, even before the Yongle Emperor named his eldest son as heir, so maybe, to "honor" his father, he at least keeps some sort of government fleet going around? Obviously, since Gaozhi (I'll just use it) was a warrior, he'd want to fight the Mongols and Oirat Horde. But maybe he still allows captains to trade far and wide?

Oh, individual thoughts and twists of fate definitely mean that there's a decent chance that Gaozhi keeps the fleet around... but in the long run, it doesn't look good for the Ming fleet.

I suppose for a sustainable naval presence to come about, the Ming fleet would have to come across something that is so important to them that they can't live without (kind of like how European exploration was fuelled by various desires for spices, slaves and gold). It doesn't seem like Zheng He found anything like that OTL, and the arrival of the Europeans to China effectively killed off the economic impetus for exploration, since those exotic goods could now be provided by the European 'middlemen'.

Maybe have Zheng He's voyages bring back coffee to China, which then creates a 'coffee craze' in the Empire (I'm not sure if this happened OTL), which then compels Chinese traders to venture out in an attempt to obtain the bean. Might also provide an impetus for China to colonize/conquer SE Asia as well.