What if the Church did not burn Witches?

[Brunaburh]

Well, not exactly always. There was a papal bull in 1480 that officially acknowledged the reality of witchcraft:


Notably, it took place some years before Protestantism really got going (after the Hussite Wars, but before Luther). I've read some conflicting ideas as to why witch-hunting became a thing in this period--ranging from the Black Death creating a combination of social trauma and a reduction in overall standards for the clergy, to the Albigensian Crusade creating an inquisitorial bureaucracy that, with the extermination of the heretics, needed to find a new target. Given that the cases really get going after the Black Death, I'm inclined to say the former is more likely--in a world where half of everyone you know drops dead, religious heterodoxy is very likely.

Thanks for that, I wasn't awarer of the 1480 bull. My view is that it is the expansion of literacy and consequently religiosity was the cause. Existing witch belief was fitted into a framework of expanded Christian mythology relating to the devil, which then spread with the development of the printing press which sparked much greater interest in matters relating to religion.

Witch belief is evident throughout the medieval period, but it was linking witches to Satan by theologians after 1400 which led to their mass persecution.

 

[Mikestone8]

All the knowledge that have perished among the flames would be part of our legacy.

What do you think? Let me know please.

OTOH, had all the accused "witches" survived and left descendants, then over ensuing centuries vast numbers of people would have married differently and had diffrerent children, so many of the great scientists of OTL would probably never get born.

Great scientists (or indeed great anythings) are a small minority in all societies.

 

[Brunaburh]

OTOH, had all the accused "witches" survived and left descendants, then over ensuing centuries vast numbers of people would have married differently and had diffrerent children, so many of the great scientists of OTL would probably never get born.

Great scientists (or indeed great anythings) are a small minority in all societies.

Alternatively, as the human brain is an organ which works according to the principles of physics, and the universe started from a fixed position which developed along a fixed path according to the same laws, it was impossible for any other combination of events to have occurred and the proposal of any counter-factual at all is futile.

Perhaps this is not the right website to make this point, but still.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Alternatively, as the human brain is an organ which works according to the principles of physics, and the universe started from a fixed position which developed along a fixed path according to the same laws, it was impossible for any other combination of events to have occurred and the proposal of any counter-factual at all is futile.

Perhaps this is not the right website to make this point, but still.

We do not believe in hard determinism in this house!

 

[Mikestone8]

rentAlternatively, as the human brain is an organ which works according to the principles of physics, and the universe started from a fixed position which developed along a fixed path according to the same laws, it was impossible for any other combination of events to have occurred and the proposal of any counter-factual at all is futile.

Perhaps this is not the right website to make this point, but still.

Do your "laws of physics" include the Uncertainty Principle? There's plenty of room for random variation

My point was that the total *number* of great men/women wouldn't necessarily be much different TTL from OTL - they just wouldn't be the *same* people.

 

[Brunaburh]

Do your "laws of physics" include the Uncertainty Principle? There's plenty of room for random variation

My point was that the total *number* of great men/women wouldn't necessarily be much different TTL from OTL - they just wouldn't be the *same* people.

I don't think they need to, really, as if everything is following the same laws, the observers are all going to be in the same position.

We do not believe in hard determinism in this house!

Burn the witch!

 

[Metempsychosis]

Burn the witch!

Free will! Free will!

 

[Brunaburh]

Free will! Free will!

If you measure the weight of a duck, you can not also measure the speed by which it is travelling to a black mass. Therefore, free will might exist.

 

[Docky90]

OTOH, had all the accused "witches" survived and left descendants, then over ensuing centuries vast numbers of people would have married differently and had diffrerent children, so many of the great scientists of OTL would probably never get born.

Great scientists (or indeed great anythings) are a small minority in all societies.

Well, I believe that small minority counts.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

As from my side, I am pretty sure "according to the rule of high numbers" and there were indeed a lot of people killed because of "witchcraft practice" there were many.

Highest estimate for people killed by witch hunts is 50,000. Terrible that that many people were killed, but I don't think 50,000 out of a European population of ~60-125 million really qualifies for the law of large numbers.

 

[Mikestone8]

Well, I believe that small minority counts.

Sure but it's not hereditary in any obvious . How many of Isaac Newton's or Albert Einstein's decenants have amounted to anything special - or, FTM how many of their *ancestors* did? If such genius is genetically determined, then the genes responsible are clearly recessive trather than dominant, so are probably carried by any number of other folks.

If witch trials butterlied away the birth of one or two greats, they are more than likely to have butterflied a similar number *into* existence, by the changes it makes to future marriages and procreation.

 

[Docky90]

Sure but it's not hereditary in any obvious . How many of Isaac Newton's or Albert Einstein's decenants have amounted to anything special - or, FTM how many of their *ancestors* did? If such genius is genetically determined, then the genes responsible are clearly recessive trather than dominant, so are probably carried by any number of other folks.

If witch trials butterlied away the birth of one or two greats, they are more than likely to have butterflied a similar number *into* existence, by the changes it makes to future marriages and procreation.

I was not referring to the descendants of the "witches", sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I was referring to the witches itself.

Many geniuses were labelled as witches and burned/hung/killed for that. There might have been contributions that have never surfaced the light, because their authors were killed before it went viral.

 

[Nivek]

As has already been stated, witch-hunts were rather uncommon and unusual occurrences that were generally managed by the secular authorities (as the Church - of whatever denomination - did not have the authority to carry out the death penalty in most cases). I'm not sure what would need to change to avoid their taking place, but despite the number of people killed I'm not sure they were particularly consequential (broadly speaking - of course, for the individuals, families and friends involved, they were devastatingly consequential) and so I doubt a great deal would change if they never happened.

Discussions about this subject always remind me of C.S. Lewis' musings on the subject:

I think this helps us better understand the mindset of the people who carried out witch-hunts - the temptation is to anachronistically project our own perception of the world backwards in time. Interestingly, Lewis seems to suggest that it is knowledge that has changed with time, and not the moral framework we might apply to such situations.

What a doublethink, kaiserreich truly was into something

 

[JennyB]

The table you are referring to is pretty useless to prove the point you are making. It includes HRE as one category that covers more than half the European total, which would be largely Catholic. In reality, it was a question of region rather than religion, Scotland, Germany and Venice were massive witch-hunting regions, England, Portugal and central Italy killed very few.

I wonder is there any correlation between witch hunts and literacy? Perhaps witch panics were to pamphlets as Qanon is to social media.

 

[RedSword12]

Many geniuses were labelled as witches and burned/hung/killed for that. There might have been contributions that have never surfaced the light, because their authors were killed before it went viral.

Care to give any examples?

 

[DJ03]

Wasn't the Inquisition more likely to say "Lol no, witches don't exist"? There were a negligible amount of witch-burnings in Spain during this period.

that was the official position before the bull Summis desiderantes affectibus, which recognized the existence of witches and their demonic connections
edit: ninjaed by Polish Eagle

 

[Crazy Boris]

I was not referring to the descendants of the "witches", sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I was referring to the witches itself.

Many geniuses were labelled as witches and burned/hung/killed for that. There might have been contributions that have never surfaced the light, because their authors were killed before it went viral.

victims of witch panic weren't killed for being geniuses, they were usually targeted for being outcasts and eccentrics, otherwise they were pretty normal unexecptional people.

 

[Victoria]

As others have said, the Catholic Church rarely burned witches, they burned heretics and Jews. Witch burning (or hanging or persecuting in general) was mostly a protestant thing. And even then, accusing a woman of witchcraft was usually for material benefit rather than because the accusers genuinely believed that she was a witch.

 

[Tanc49]

I couldn't decide if you were trolling or not. I am pretty sure you meant letters or mails.
In the word Email the "E" stands for electronic. In the 15th century it did not exist in our current daily life form.

It's a common misconception, the "E" actually stands for "Eldritch".

Is there any solid database of witch killings by period/region? I've seen the whole Protestant vs Catholic debate, but I'd be curious to see hard data related to that.
As far as I recall, during the MA, it was an offence to accuse someone of witchcraft. But my source is "I'm pretty sure I heard that on a serious podcast not too long ago" so I might not be correct.

 

[DJ03]

imo, the cause for the early modern surge of witch trials should be found in the renewed belief in magic that came from the greater study of greco-roman authors (who did believe in magic)
if you want to remove witch-hunts, you need late medieval and renaissance intellectuals to read greco-roman sources more critically