What if Palestinian Arab beat Israel during war of independents

[Snake Featherston]

Both sides conducted massacres. Neither one held moral superiority over the other. The Hadassah Medical convoy massacre is a prime example of a massacre against the Jewish population, and not even combatants. The Hadassah convoy massacre took place four days after the Deir Yassin massacre. One attack does not justify the actions of the other, and vice versa.

Actually with a different, smarter leadership the Palestinians *would* have had all manner of international law on their side. Unfortunately they had Hajj Amin Al-Husseini, who was too much a murderous dick to make use of the kind of politics that might have irreparably tarred Israel's moral and legal perspectives from the start.

Israel was a blatant violation of what the Yishuv had said it was doing (such as Ben-Gurion's claim that "Zionism does not want a Jewish state "), it made plenty use of indiscriminate ethnic cleansing and attempts to reduce the presence of the native Arabs and refused, in fact, to call them anything other than "human dust." Unfortunately when someone like Hajj Amin-Husseini, who was too murderous to be trusted and too ineffectual to gain even an Oderint dum Metuant type of "peace" is around the Palestinians wound up in the worst of all worlds: displaced from their cities and parts of the countryside, and under the rule of three occupying powers all of whom did not want a rebirth of Palestinian identity, but saddled with leaders like Hajj Amin Al-Husseini who as noted left them with a reputation for treachery and the rubble of a lost war without anything to really show for it.

And from an Israeli POV leaders like Hajj Amin Al-Husseini only strengthened the siege mentality and made any recognition of the rights of displaced refugees increasingly impossible, while the Palestinian leadership's statements of genocidal overtones again made it easy for the Israelis to permanently eschew any kind of compromise whatsoever as no state will ever make significant concessions to people who want to wipe it out altogether.

 

[Morty Vicar]

Actually with a different, smarter leadership the Palestinians *would* have had all manner of international law on their side. Unfortunately they had Hajj Amin Al-Husseini, who was too much a murderous dick to make use of the kind of politics that might have irreparably tarred Israel's moral and legal perspectives from the start.

I disagree, mainly because the two most powerful World Nationas at the time, USA and USSR, both supported the existence of Israel, despite agreeing on very little else during the cold war. Added to this was a general post-Holocaust white guilt in Europe, and therefore a reluctance to criticise the jewish diaspora in fear of being labelled anti-semitic. Outside of Europe the only nations reacting strongly to events were Arab nations as far as I know, international condemnation of Israel only really began in earnest after the war of independence.

 

[Dalmighty]

I disagree, mainly because the two most powerful World Nationas at the time, USA and USSR, both supported the existence of Israel, despite agreeing on very little else during the cold war. Added to this was a general post-Holocaust white guilt in Europe, and therefore a reluctance to criticise the jewish diaspora in fear of being labelled anti-semitic. Outside of Europe the only nations reacting strongly to events were Arab nations as far as I know, international condemnation of Israel only really began in earnest after the war of independence.

Then that means that at any point should the war start turning against Israel, the US and the USSR would both step it to 'mediate' a treaty similar to the mandate but with adjustments for both sides. Whether either side would accept it or not - depends on the leadership.. but if it was anything similar with people like Amin-Husseini.. well..

This would really just make it similar as in OTL. Only the Israelis being less successful the first time around. And both sides gearing up for a second -- and a third try. But this makes Palestine much better off, being an actual sovereign nation with a cultural, national identity and all. Too many butterflies.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

With the Mufti's record of murdering any Palestinian who might have been the slightest threat or rival alonng with thousands more while making it impossible for the Arab leaders, especially Abdullah of Jordan, to treat him as anything but an enemy and threat himself, the effects on Arab unity and Palestinian effectiveness were exactly as you would expect.

 

[Enigmajones]

Having either eradicated or expelled the Jewish settlers, the region is divided. Lebanon takes unnofficial control of Al-Malkiyya, Syria annexes Golan Heights, Jordan, under King Abdullah, takes control of the North Bank, and Egypt occupies South Palestine, with many of the Muslim Brotherhood and Arab Liberation Army also settling there. However many of the Palestinians, initially hopeful of a new era of independence and self-government, begin to resent what they increasingly view as occupation by Jordan, and it becomes clear that King Abdullah had every intention of annexing Palestinian territories to Jordan. The leftist elements of Palestine form the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, a peaceful group who begin nonviolent demonstrations against the Jordanian authorities. However the Jordanians crack down hard on the protesters, seeking to curb the new radical movement. The PLO fighters, commonly known as fedayeen, escalate their conflict with Jordan, to the point that Jordan requests US and British help to contain the conflict. However the British and Americans refuse, partly because of Jordans alleged human rights abuses in the Palestinian territories. With Syria threatening to invade on behalf of the PLO (with their own interests in the Palestinian territories) Jordan backs down and grants the region Independence.
In the meantime, after the Egyptian Revolution, Gamal Abdul Nasser grants independence to Southern Palestine, after years of being nothing more than a controlled territory of Egypt, administered by a military Governor. The Muslim Brotherhood, many of whom initially had fled the Egyptian Revolution, move into Southern Palestine and establish a political party, Hamas, controversially claiming all former Palestinian territory for an Islamic state. They narrowly defeat their opponents Fatah, allied to the PLO in the north. However soon after the election fighting breaks out between the two sides, spilling over into the North Bank as well. The PLO are supported by PKK and Hezbollah, the latter whom worry about a Sunni Islamic regime close to their heartland in southern Lebanon. The Lebanese armed forces then also join the battle on the side of Hamas, seeing the opportunity to destroy militant factions who effectively control Al-Malkiyya and threaten the south of Lebanon.

That was awesome.

 

[Snake Featherston]

I disagree, mainly because the two most powerful World Nationas at the time, USA and USSR, both supported the existence of Israel, despite agreeing on very little else during the cold war. Added to this was a general post-Holocaust white guilt in Europe, and therefore a reluctance to criticise the jewish diaspora in fear of being labelled anti-semitic. Outside of Europe the only nations reacting strongly to events were Arab nations as far as I know, international condemnation of Israel only really began in earnest after the war of independence.

Eh, I might note that from the strictly legal perspective Haganah and Irgun and the Stern Gang all violated both the spirit and the letter of the Mandate of Palestine. The state of Israel, legally, was a sharply skewed interpretation of "homeland for the Jewish people", and the Israelis relied very much on driving Arabs out of what was to be "Jewish" territory, especially in the cities.

Again, unfortunately with leaders like Hajj Amin Al-Husseini the Palestinians were saddled with leaders too murderous for anyone to trust and too incompetent and ineffectual for anyone to fear. Bad combination.....

 

[Morty Vicar]

Eh, I might note that from the strictly legal perspective Haganah and Irgun and the Stern Gang all violated both the spirit and the letter of the Mandate of Palestine. The state of Israel, legally, was a sharply skewed interpretation of "homeland for the Jewish people", and the Israelis relied very much on driving Arabs out of what was to be "Jewish" territory, especially in the cities.

Again, unfortunately with leaders like Hajj Amin Al-Husseini the Palestinians were saddled with leaders too murderous for anyone to trust and too incompetent and ineffectual for anyone to fear. Bad combination.....

It would be very interesting to put TE Lawrence into the 1948 Israeli war, athough I doubt he would be any more successful than John Bagot Glubb or Norman Lash

 

[Jason222]

First Palestinians holy war army in 1947 when came local fire fights they strength over 50,000 Palestinian Arabs even thought only Holy war army only had 10,000 both Palestinian volunteers and other countries and Palestinian send were ever they were needed. If the holy war army used man power pool more effectively every Palestinian part group could be send were need to fought Jews Zionist. The Palestinian Arabs might have stood a chance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Holy_War

 

[Snake Featherston]

First Palestinians holy war army in 1947 when came local fire fights they strength over 50,000 Palestinian Arabs even thought only Holy war army only had 10,000 both Palestinian volunteers and other countries and Palestinian send were ever they were needed. If the holy war army used man power pool more effectively every Palestinian part group could be send were need to fought Jews Zionist. The Palestinian Arabs might have stood a chance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Holy_War

Virgil, can you put that in a way that even Caesar can understand?

References Planet of the Apes.

 

[Jason222]

Virgil, can you put that in a way that even Caesar can understand?

References Planet of the Apes.

Yes to make simple if ASA had force over 50,000 Palestinian Arab militiamen. About only 5,000 were available for anything but local combat battle near by villages. If ASA was able carry offensive mission with that kind manpower the outcome Israel war of independent might have been different. Also if ASA had did more work get in Nazi commandos form Nazi Germany. The out come battle Jerusalem would be over before Israel became independent be under Arab rule. The us chemical weapons would have done the trick.

 

[Morty Vicar]

That was awesome.

Lol yeah sorry I just hate the Arab/ Israeli wank that sometimes crops up, the idea that a Middle East would be all sunshine and rainbows if only it wasn't for the jews/ Arabs. Truth is it would probably be as fucked up as the neighbouring countries are.