How much of europe would/could the muslims have conquered if they had won the battle of tours? Would europe end up becoming predominantly muslim?
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what if muslims won the battle of tours?
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Not necessarily, though parts of southern Gaul might have.
Twenty years later, at the other end of their Empire, precisely this did happen. They defeated the Chinese at Talas in 751. But this was not followed by any conquests in China, though the immediate area, in East Turkestan (Sinkiang) did become Moslem. It would probably have been the same in Europe.
Actually, a bigger danger would have been if they got a firm foothold in Dalmatia nd/or Albania, since the Slav tribes in the hinterland were mostly still Pagan, and might have been converted. This could have put the ERE in a vice, and opened up a path into the middle of Europe.
Why wouldn't they go past southern france? I think they could easily conquer much of europe. The muslims would have had far more advanced weapons than the europeans, im sure. And they were very warlike.
Numbers, distance and power projection. At some point, and Tours was about that point, Arabs would have to stop because there would be simply impossible to go on adding new territory without absorbing already conquered one. and the further from their base go the weaker they become in relative terms, making and successful opposition easier.
Or perhaps muslim expansion would be gradual
Perhaps muslim expansion would be gradual if they win the battle of tours?
Perhaps muslim expansion would be gradual if they win the battle of tours?
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Gradual expansion would leave the Christians a lot of breathing room.
The Battle of Tours not was the first major battle lost by the Umayyad forces in their military campaigns to the north, taking the lives of thousands of Umayyad soldiers (Berbers in their majority),was an army sent from al-Andalus, part of the Umayyad Caliphate.
The Duke of Aquitaine broke the siege of Toulouse, inflicted a severe defeat to Malik ibn As-Samh in the battle of Toulouse, June 9 of 721.
The Duke to secure its borders married his daughter, with the Berber Uthman ibn Naissa called "Munuza" by the Franks, Muslim governor of the territory ,probably, from Septimania based in Narbonne.
However, in the next months, the Berber leader will be in revolt against Cordova.
Umayyad attacked the Odo's ally in the Pyrenees region of Cerdanya
Uthman ibn Naissa. the Berber Governor had to cope with the attack of an expedition led by Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi, in 731,who beat and killed the leader of the rebels and captured the daughter of Odo.
Busy as he was trying to defend from the push of his opponent Charles Martel, could not help his ally.
In 732, Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi troops invaded Wascony, moving towards Bordeaux and plundered the country and captured the city of Narbonne.
The Duke Odo fought against them, but was defeated by the Umayyads near Bordeaux, in the Battle of the River Garonne.
After the defeat, Odo ran at north to warn Charles Martel, by then already steward of the palace of Neustria and Austrasia, the imminent threat and to appeal for help in fighting the Arab advance, aid received in exchange for formally accept the Frankish Autority about him.
The Battle of Tours (October 732), also called the Battle of Poitiers and
in Arabic: معركة بلاط الشهداء (ma'arakat Balat ash-Shuhada -Battle of the
Palace of Martyrs).
Was Fought in an area Between the cities of Poitiers and Tours, in north-Central France, near the village of Moussais-la-Bataille, acerca 20 kilometers northeast of Poitiers.
The location of the battle was close to the border Between the Frankish realm and then-independent Aquitaine.
Were a coalition of the Frankish and Burgundian forces under Austrasian Mayor of the Palace Charles Martel (the Hammered, was named) ally to Duke of Aquitaine and Wasconia (Gascony)against an army of the Umayyad Caliphate led by 'Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi, Governor-General of al-Andalus.
Was the area Between the cities of Poitiers and Tours, in north-Central France, near the village of Moussais-la-Bataille, acerca 20 kilometers northeast of Poitiers.
.
The Duke of Aquitaine broke the siege of Toulouse, inflicted a severe defeat to Malik ibn As-Samh in the battle of Toulouse, June 9 of 721.
The Duke to secure its borders married his daughter, with the Berber Uthman ibn Naissa called "Munuza" by the Franks, Muslim governor of the territory ,probably, from Septimania based in Narbonne.
However, in the next months, the Berber leader will be in revolt against Cordova.
Umayyad attacked the Odo's ally in the Pyrenees region of Cerdanya
Uthman ibn Naissa. the Berber Governor had to cope with the attack of an expedition led by Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi, in 731,who beat and killed the leader of the rebels and captured the daughter of Odo.
Busy as he was trying to defend from the push of his opponent Charles Martel, could not help his ally.
In 732, Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi troops invaded Wascony, moving towards Bordeaux and plundered the country and captured the city of Narbonne.
The Duke Odo fought against them, but was defeated by the Umayyads near Bordeaux, in the Battle of the River Garonne.
After the defeat, Odo ran at north to warn Charles Martel, by then already steward of the palace of Neustria and Austrasia, the imminent threat and to appeal for help in fighting the Arab advance, aid received in exchange for formally accept the Frankish Autority about him.
The Battle of Tours (October 732), also called the Battle of Poitiers and
in Arabic: معركة بلاط الشهداء (ma'arakat Balat ash-Shuhada -Battle of the
Palace of Martyrs).
Was Fought in an area Between the cities of Poitiers and Tours, in north-Central France, near the village of Moussais-la-Bataille, acerca 20 kilometers northeast of Poitiers.
The location of the battle was close to the border Between the Frankish realm and then-independent Aquitaine.
Were a coalition of the Frankish and Burgundian forces under Austrasian Mayor of the Palace Charles Martel (the Hammered, was named) ally to Duke of Aquitaine and Wasconia (Gascony)against an army of the Umayyad Caliphate led by 'Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi, Governor-General of al-Andalus.
Was the area Between the cities of Poitiers and Tours, in north-Central France, near the village of Moussais-la-Bataille, acerca 20 kilometers northeast of Poitiers.
.
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If the Hammered died
It must be remembered that the prestige gained in this battle allowed in Otl definitely assert the dynasty of Heristal from being the de facto power in the kingdom of the Franks, to be the sole Power ...
By 725 Charles Martel ('hereditary Mayor of Palace') HAD established himself as ruler of the Franks, Although I have maintained the fiction of Merovingian Sovereignty Until 737, When following the death of Theuderic IV I let the vacant throne REMAIN. Charles Martel died in 741, and his sons Pippin III the Short and Carloman divided the realm Between themselves.
The Berber leader not killed to the bishop of Urgell Nambaudus
and will not became a rebel, from his masters in Cordova. Abdul Rahman in turn not sent an expedition to crush His revolt, and launch an attack Against Uthman's ally Odo.
In turn, would be, with Odo's Umayid vassals forces will launch an attack Against Odo's enemy.
If Charles Martel died in battle or duty retire after the defeat, power and prestige Franco, would be very damaging severely esu prestige and its ability to the Visigothic nobles settlement, was primarily Concentrated along the Garonne River Between Bordeaux Gauls and Romans Provence and South of Aquitaine, quickly would offer allegiance and loyalty to the authority of the Caliphate, much more bearable and lighter than that of the Franks
Effective control and Islamization is not likely extend beyond Septimania
Initially, the Muslims left the Christians alone to Practise Their religion,, Although non-Muslims Were Islamic law and subject to special tax, Treated as second-class Citizens, but gradually assimilate the conquered societies, Islamization of them in the process.
And as a result, at least part of the Basques would convert to Islam, making the 'Reconquista', were to happen, to become or isolated the Asturian and Cantabrians.
It must be remembered that the prestige gained in this battle allowed in Otl definitely assert the dynasty of Heristal from being the de facto power in the kingdom of the Franks, to be the sole Power ...
By 725 Charles Martel ('hereditary Mayor of Palace') HAD established himself as ruler of the Franks, Although I have maintained the fiction of Merovingian Sovereignty Until 737, When following the death of Theuderic IV I let the vacant throne REMAIN. Charles Martel died in 741, and his sons Pippin III the Short and Carloman divided the realm Between themselves.
The Berber leader not killed to the bishop of Urgell Nambaudus
and will not became a rebel, from his masters in Cordova. Abdul Rahman in turn not sent an expedition to crush His revolt, and launch an attack Against Uthman's ally Odo.
In turn, would be, with Odo's Umayid vassals forces will launch an attack Against Odo's enemy.
If Charles Martel died in battle or duty retire after the defeat, power and prestige Franco, would be very damaging severely esu prestige and its ability to the Visigothic nobles settlement, was primarily Concentrated along the Garonne River Between Bordeaux Gauls and Romans Provence and South of Aquitaine, quickly would offer allegiance and loyalty to the authority of the Caliphate, much more bearable and lighter than that of the Franks
Effective control and Islamization is not likely extend beyond Septimania
Initially, the Muslims left the Christians alone to Practise Their religion,, Although non-Muslims Were Islamic law and subject to special tax, Treated as second-class Citizens, but gradually assimilate the conquered societies, Islamization of them in the process.
And as a result, at least part of the Basques would convert to Islam, making the 'Reconquista', were to happen, to become or isolated the Asturian and Cantabrians.
And didn't Martell bet "all the marbles" as it we're with all the allies, mercenaries, volunteers, and conscripts he could get? I mean I heard he forced his peasants to stay when regularly they were only part time soldiers who NEEDED to return home to farm, so if he did lose at Tours (which is pretty much the center of France, and everything underneath it nice and firmly in Moorish hands) what else can Western Europe actually throw?
The Franks were considered the best of the best, if they lose who can Christendom turn to? The Byzantines certainly don't have the power projection, and the Holy Roman Empire just took a one way butterfly effect to non-existence, so yah even if the Moors had to retreat the gap they just left was vast and wouldn't be filled for years something I doubt the Moors would let happen. Odo had to pledge loyalty to Martell cause his ass had already gotten beaten badly. So even if the Moors pillaged Gaul and left for this year they'd certainly come back the next with an intent to conquer, and their wouldn't be an Odo, or Martell to get in their way.
That's kind of how you get severe raiding and looting. I mean for perspective they hadn't even mopped up all of Spain, how on earth are they going to go for the rest of Europe.
That's the glory of religion theirs still plenty of Pagans in Europe to convert to the Islamic cause and considering Germania was see-sawing the introduction of a new major religion to the mix wouldn't help the Christians especially when the only real Christian power was in the Balkans(and isn't even the same type) won't help their cause.
After all who are the Pagans gonna take seriously the monk, or the Muslim Army? This is a time strength is respected not words Islam proved its strength, it's soldiers got to loot and pillage the whole lands beyond the Rhine and all a young virile Germanian has to do to get in on this is convert? It's not even a question strength attracts more followers and if the Moors win at Tours Christendom is super weak, and Islam is strong with no real major rivals in the West.
Christianity won't be wiped out obviously but they might end up way if the Jews.
To answer what Europe can throw at Islam in the case of crippled Franks, they can simply throw themselves. At that point just the digesting any further territory would have exhausted the machine. None need to actively defend from any onslaughts to come because the train of conquest was losing steam, and pushing further into foreign lands would only choke out what breath was left in the Caliphate momentum.
You go to Italy, bogged down with attrition.
You go to Burgundia, bogged down with attrition
You go deeper into Gaul, bogged to hell with attrition.
Not even mentioning Britannia or Germania which are out of the question.
Christianity can turn to its size and depth as well as its culturo-religious permanence to maintain itself in the event of a Tours victory. The power gap would have been left unfilled in Gaul, it wouldn't be replaced with the Muslims, breaking it doesn't necessarily mean you have to buy it in this case.
*Side Note: In the event of weakened Franks, it might be possible for the Lombard kingdom to catch a break and pull itself together, or it might fall apart even more, either way is good for defense against any possible invasion.
Quite hard for me to imagine what europe would be like if that happened.
It's doubtful conversion would extend very far, christianity was already rather entrenched in the west european mentality at the time.
If we look at the caliphates in Spain and use those as a model for how the Arab conquest would affect the rest of Europe we'll see a kind of decentralized feudalism, spilt into several fiefdoms or smaller units. Conversion may happen to an extent, but most likely it'll be an option taken by the part of the middle and upper classes that want to manuver and engage in politics and large scale activities of trade and social affairs, and take part in the administration. The spanish caliphs and rulers didn't really give a damn as long as taxes were paid. North Africa was mostly converted due to caravan trade and later missionary activity, but it's doubtful if the rulers of the periphery of a muslim empire would see the homogenizing effect of extensive trade with the muslim core areas. The Ottoman holdings in the Balkans certainly didn't.
If we assume the victorious arabs take territory up till the Seine, a nice natural border, I'd say the next few hundred years are spend with the feudal rulers vying over how to split it all. There certainly won't be any central authority from Baghdad or any other muslim heartland, the distances involved are just to great.
The power structure of Europe will probably change in favour of Germany and Central Europe rather than France as was the case in our timeline. A reconquista to integrate France into a German Empire would be interesting. If Burgundy can still exist in a form similar to what they did in real life they could also benefit from launching such an invasion. How England might handle it all is also an interesting question. Perhaps they become a barbary analogue, giving free habour to pirates raiding muslim shipping, justified by religious arguments. Perhaps they could even snatch up Brittany, if the muslim neighbor isn't careful not to let that happen.
At best more of Europe would benefit from the Islamic golden age. If a muslim Empire can extract large amounts of tribute from France and use it constructivly then we might see a technological and artistic resurgency rise in the 1300s or so, hopefully affecting the rest of Europe. At worst we might get a reconquiesta, a sort of new mentality of independence in the christian parts of the Muslim hegemony in France. Either we could get an edict of Nantes analogue, increasing muslim/christian equality and establishing what we might describe as a mulitcultural (or at least mulit-religious) society. Or we could see the aforementioned reconuista kind of armed conflict resulting, lots of tragedy coming from that.
This is assuming the caliphates last so long. With the turbulence coming from the fall of baghdad in the 1200s a weakend Muslim periphery could be easy prey to determined, organized invaders, most likely from Italy or the afore mentioned German Empire that might rise out of a power vacuum in Central Europe.
If all this seems complicated or far-fetched you could go read some of that "Muslim Invasion" literature that seems to be all the rage and write a timeline about evil muslims stomping in the faces of christian babies forever or whatnot.
Celtic Christianity
An unintended consequence of a Caliphate extending to Bordeaux region in directly and indirectly controlled through their vassals, from the Provençal Alps in the east to the Loire River in the North and the natural boundary and the maximum limit of their influence.
By causing the isolation of Ireland and the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy of the Roman Church, with the Alpine passes into the hands of vassals of the Caliphate, the rest of Gaul and southern Germania (United Franco), in chaos among disputed between the candidates to succeed the Héristal and incursions of the Saxons (fiercely pagans) and Frisians, who would it be evangelized from Ireland.
Giving him another chance to Christianity Celta, which was, in Otl, which evangelized the British Isles and had to undergo Roma (in rituals, organization, monastic discipline, etc), to become dominant in northwestern Europe (Otl, unfurled a large missionary activity in Germany and monastery in England and Gaul).
It is likely that future Muslim expansion, if any, will be in charge of the Armies and traders Andalusians (from Al Andaluz), a hegemonic power in southwestern Europe, being a active participant in the Medieval Europe and them feudal Policy.
An unintended consequence of a Caliphate extending to Bordeaux region in directly and indirectly controlled through their vassals, from the Provençal Alps in the east to the Loire River in the North and the natural boundary and the maximum limit of their influence.
By causing the isolation of Ireland and the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy of the Roman Church, with the Alpine passes into the hands of vassals of the Caliphate, the rest of Gaul and southern Germania (United Franco), in chaos among disputed between the candidates to succeed the Héristal and incursions of the Saxons (fiercely pagans) and Frisians, who would it be evangelized from Ireland.
Giving him another chance to Christianity Celta, which was, in Otl, which evangelized the British Isles and had to undergo Roma (in rituals, organization, monastic discipline, etc), to become dominant in northwestern Europe (Otl, unfurled a large missionary activity in Germany and monastery in England and Gaul).
It is likely that future Muslim expansion, if any, will be in charge of the Armies and traders Andalusians (from Al Andaluz), a hegemonic power in southwestern Europe, being a active participant in the Medieval Europe and them feudal Policy.
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what about after conquering gaul they attempt to attack england?
What about after conquering gaul they attempt to attack england?
What about after conquering gaul they attempt to attack england?
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