Oh my GOD! Am I the only Bogey fan here? Am I the only one who remembers this movie?
Ooops.
What if japan attacked/destroyed the panama canal at the same time as pearl harbour?
- Thread starter Ross789
- Start date
Coming back to this a year later-
I just read Harry Turtledoves' "days of infamy" (japan invades hawaii, not too realistic but fun to read) and it gave me an idea related to this.
Japan had big, long-range flying boats called H8Ks that could get refuelled by submarine.
They could potentially have used a few (with multiple top-ups from subs) to carry out a kamikaze attack on the locks at the same time as (even after?) pearl harbour, and done a lot more damage than the submarine-carried floatplanes idea they considered.
I'm not sure what kind of fighter cover the canal had at the time to protect it, or when it got radar.
Also I realise it wasn't till later in the war that suicide attacks really became a thing, but its still possible.
Is this as plausible as it sounds to me?
I just read Harry Turtledoves' "days of infamy" (japan invades hawaii, not too realistic but fun to read) and it gave me an idea related to this.
Japan had big, long-range flying boats called H8Ks that could get refuelled by submarine.
They could potentially have used a few (with multiple top-ups from subs) to carry out a kamikaze attack on the locks at the same time as (even after?) pearl harbour, and done a lot more damage than the submarine-carried floatplanes idea they considered.
I'm not sure what kind of fighter cover the canal had at the time to protect it, or when it got radar.
Also I realise it wasn't till later in the war that suicide attacks really became a thing, but its still possible.
Is this as plausible as it sounds to me?
'German agents' and 'success' are rarely seen together in the same sentence during WW2 operations.
The idea could make for a good book or an entertaining film. .
Hawaii to Panama is nearly 3,000 kilometres further than the Home Islands to the former.
There was an outbreak of FBI paranoia regarding a German attack on the canal via secret airbases in the Amazon (which neatly links in airships via Graf Zeppelin's flights to Brazil in the '30s for anyone planning a novel). There were rumours of Nazi infiltration in the Amazon region and a report of a huge shipment of fuel being sailed up the Amazon by a group described (in official papers!) as ‘German monks’. This brought in the FBI, US military intelligence and the State Department.
Of course in the end there was no planned attack on the Panama Canal.
It was actually an Ahnenerbe plan to explore the Lost City of Z and gain control of the advanced technology of 'Z' to defeat the Allies...
Of course in the end there was no planned attack on the Panama Canal.
It was actually an Ahnenerbe plan to explore the Lost City of Z and gain control of the advanced technology of 'Z' to defeat the Allies...
If you could destroy the locks with a sea plane attached to a Japanese submarine, how long would it take to replace a lock?
You also had the emergency gates that could be started to set into place within 2 minutes. They were mounted on the higher level locks to shut off the flow of water down stream in case of the breach.
Lock design
Lock design
Simple enough 3 or 4 old rust bucket freighters refuel in Hawaii and presto bango gates are gone.
Geon
Donor
Just as @Spencersj345.346 mentioned, fuel would be the major sticking point. The Pearl Harbo operation was pushing Japanese oil resources to their limit. They did not have the means or range to reach Panama. And there is no way Japan would sacrifice two carriers on a virtual suicide mission to take out the Canal.
Even if a Japanese attack managed to block Canal passage for several months, U.S. ships from the East Coast could have taken the Cape and Indian Ocean route to reach the most important place, Australia. The buildup of Midway, the reconstruction of Pearl Harbor, and getting troops to the stepping stone islands between Hawaii and Australia could have been done using West Coast shipping after rapid rail shipment of troops, supplies, armaments and construction equipment located on the East Coast and in the Midwest. The sending of new U.S. warplanes to the Pacific would not have been affected, except in the case of carriers in the Atlantic. Would it have been too risky to go around the Horn? If the Canal destruction took a year or more to fix (highly unlikely), the outcome might have been U.S. warships using the Indian Ocean route to help the Australians in Timor and the Brits in Burma. Holding the line in Burma and keeping the road to China open, would do a lot to limit and reverse the damage from the Singapore, Philippines and DEI disasters. Probably the best way to examine these issues is by moving the thread to ASB. The superbats totally remove the Canal, widen the Canal Zone to where it is no longer practical for any canal and do the same for the Nicaragua route. Then they tell the Japanese, "that's all you get from us, the rest is up to you."
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Gates are not as easy yo damage as folks seam to think. You are going to need significant power to damage the gates to any degree that goes beyond annoying. Keep in mind these things already withstand large amounts of pressure in their day to day use and the occasional impact as well.
Plus they were build in the age of major overkill when designing industrial things.
Plus they were build in the age of major overkill when designing industrial things.
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I'm not weighing in on the feasibility of JAPAN conducting such an operation, but I wanted to share this reminiscence of a man who was there on the scene at the time:
[The author then goes on to relate how, while committed to arrive in Panama at a definite hour, they successfully hid the two carriers from retaliation at the hands of Army bombers by hiding in an intense rain squall. The whole chapter, indeed the whole book, is worth your time. Clear the Decks! by RADM Daniel V. Gallery, pages 84-87, available online with registration through archive.org]
[The author then goes on to relate how, while committed to arrive in Panama at a definite hour, they successfully hid the two carriers from retaliation at the hands of Army bombers by hiding in an intense rain squall. The whole chapter, indeed the whole book, is worth your time. Clear the Decks! by RADM Daniel V. Gallery, pages 84-87, available online with registration through archive.org]
Yeah, I just looked it up, the locks are 2m thick, 19.5m wide and 20m high.
It would need to be a big bomb, I don't think carrier-air dropped bombs/torpedoes would do much damage.
Not a demolition expert but I reckon a ship or big plane stuffed with explosives and rammed into one would mess it up though.
Ramontxo
Donor
There were massive security measures to prevent just that. A lot of years ago someone posted in one of the Navweaps.com forums having one of the big Japanese Sea Planes to appear at first hour morning of Pearl Harbour day (disguised as one of the scheduled US planes) and torpedo the dam that provides water to the lock. I don't remember all the plan but he had it very worked out.
OK, how about this Fredrick Forsythesque novel, considering the feasibility parameters set in this thread so far. Axis spies (German, Japanese, or what have you) plot the track of an Allied ammunition ship through the canal. As the ship nears the best spot to ruin the Canal (your pick) a Japanese sub-launched float plane flying nap of the earth appears over a hill and bombs the ship, causing a Halifax explosion magnitude blast.
This fits squarely into a Yamamoto type plan, as it has so many moving parts as to depend on an insane amount of luck to pull off.
This fits squarely into a Yamamoto type plan, as it has so many moving parts as to depend on an insane amount of luck to pull off.