The E14Y seaplane carried by the submarines had a maximum payload of around 300kg, and the struts attacked to the floats prevented the centreline carriage of ordnance. There is no way they are able to lift an 800kg bomb or torpedo.
What if Japan attack both Pearl Habor and Panama canal at the same time
- Thread starter Jason222
- Start date
The E14Y seaplane carried by the submarines had a maximum payload of around 300kg, and the struts attacked to the floats prevented the centreline carriage of ordnance. There is no way they are able to lift an 800kg bomb or torpedo.
Ram ,lets try another approach .How about a False Flag approach 
The Japanese Intelligence agents, hire a middle man to hire a cargo ship, to ship ammonia nitrate to Australia .However the Japanese place a bomb in with the cargo.Also a Japanese agent voluntaries to go with the ship to make sure it goes BOOM . Now I know that a lot of palms are going to be greased to make this work , buy it's the late 30's early 40's People were desperate for money .To make it more interesting hire a American ship .
The Japanese Intelligence agents, hire a middle man to hire a cargo ship, to ship ammonia nitrate to Australia .However the Japanese place a bomb in with the cargo.Also a Japanese agent voluntaries to go with the ship to make sure it goes BOOM . Now I know that a lot of palms are going to be greased to make this work , buy it's the late 30's early 40's People were desperate for money .To make it more interesting hire a American ship .BlondieBC
Banned
It was a passing reference, but it said the plane could not be landed with such a load, i would guess they strip off all extra weight including the landing gear,and do a catapult launch. Also, like no fuel for a return, no radio, and any other weight that could be stripped out. These were not standard planes, but custom built planes for one job. The subs could even have some custom modifications for this one mission.
The torpedo was to be a Type 95.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_95_torpedo
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Still they would likely offload the crew and have a canal crew send it through the canal, Ammonium Nitrate is dangerous stuff and it may not look suspicious but it is, and likely even the best faked paperwork will still look fishy, not enough to turn the ship back but still a bit funny, especially if there are Japanese involvedRam ,lets try another approach .How about a False Flag approach
Especially as heading via the Canal to Australia with nitrates is a dumb approach as all the sources are in the Pacific or Indian Ocean from what I recall, most sources of nitrates will not need to pass through the Panama canal
David S Poepoe
Banned
The debate is pointless. Why doesn't someone just post an alternate timeline?
Or if someone has access, perhaps via the National Archives, etc., to typical security measures that were used at the Canal between 1937-1942. Also if we could take a look at some database that would have the manifests of ships transiting the Canal during the period we could make far more educated guesses.
Or if someone has access, perhaps via the National Archives, etc., to typical security measures that were used at the Canal between 1937-1942. Also if we could take a look at some database that would have the manifests of ships transiting the Canal during the period we could make far more educated guesses.
What if the Japanese tried this with German assistance? The disruption of the Canal would potentially benefit the Germans since the redistribution of Allied Naval resources from the Pacific to the Atlantic would require a long voyage south around the tip of South America, or an even longer voyage around the tip of Africa by way of the Indian Ocean. So lets say that in order for the Japanese to pull this off, they officially request that the Germans send them a ship full of ammonia nitrate, however, the Germans pull the same infiltration stunt that they pulled at the Battle of the Bulge. Remember, Americans have never seen this trick before and even in OTL, they had to ask pop culture questions that only Americans would know the answers too, and if a Canal crew actually takes the ship through the canal, all they have to do into get the ship into the system. So you have a German ship, bound for Japan, but flying false colours, say American, and crewed by Germans passing themselves off as Americans. You might also have a Japanese agent hiding somewhere on the ship, with a detanator and a charge, to set off the explosives at the right time.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
It could work, heck Warlocks original plan could work, but it would be incredibly likely to fail and backfire spectacularly, as in 99 times out of 100
If anyone would like to find out the real defenses of the Panama Canal, check out this website. http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Guard-US/ch12.htm
This site should give posters here a lot of food for thought.
This site should give posters here a lot of food for thought.
Japanese Intel either lied or was completely wrong in 1945 there were 4 squadrons of USAAF and 2 of USN fighters and 3 squadrons of USAAF Patrol bombers and 2 squadrons of USN Patrol bombers assigned to the canal zone. Plus a full air defense radar at either end. 10 planes would get chewed to tiny little bits. I was talking 1941 when I said that a 1 carrier strike had a chance, by mid 1942 or later it would take a full strike by multi-carriers.
Ram ,lets try another approach .How about a False Flag approach
The problem is that the US is turning back most ships with this kind of cargo, plus the timing. They have no way to know when it is going through the canal. And any ship with a Japanese "agent" on board would either get turned back or the agent would get a free trip by train through the canal zone in a blacked out train car so they couldn't see anything.
As I have said repeatedly the US took the security of the canal VERY seriously they turned back BRITISH ships that looked suspicious after Britain was an ally. Companies and people were not that willing to take bribes to try to take banned cargoes through the canal because they could and would be banned from using the canal which would break a company and ruin a captain (the only person on a ship that could agree to this kind of bribe). Plus when they get caught they end up in a nice jail for up to 20 years for attempted Sabotage. Really this makes much a much better adventure novel or Hollywood level accuracy movie than real AH.
There are lots of reasons that the Japanese and Germans didn't do this during the war - because it is such an obvious choke point that the Americans defended it, even when they were not actively at war the canal zone was on war footing and the troops there were serous about it. There was not the same complacency about "oh we are at peace nobody will attack us" that there was at Pearl Harbor, the Canal zone was aware that a war could start and that if someone attacked there it could cripple the ability to transfer troops and equipment between the East and West coast quickly. They were alert and actively watching for attacks and sabotage of the types described so far in this thread.
The one that has the best chance to succeed is probably the Commando attack but I doubt it would succeed either and I think it would take a POD a lot earlier in order to get a Commando force that would be able to both get through the defenses and do the job after they did. The the question becomes what do other countries do if they notice that Japan is training a special forces group - admittedly probably nothing because of the attitude of the times. But there is the chance that an early POD for Japan to get special forces could drive stronger defense elsewhere, or special forces in other countries earlier.
BlondieBC
Banned
I am watching a show on the building of the canal. The lock gates are hollow and actually float, this is why a small motor could move the canal. So it is not breaking through many feet of steel, but the equivalent of breaking through a lightly armored ship hull.