Even assuming heavy losses amongst the torpedo wings, at worst Zuikaku and Shokaku could follow up with air wings of 27 fighters and 54 kamikazes each.
What if Japan adopts Kamikaze tactics in 1942?
- Thread starter steel_captain
- Start date
Even assuming heavy losses amongst the torpedo wings, at worst Zuikaku and Shokaku could follow up with air wings of 27 fighters and 54 kamikazes each.
Garrison
Donor
With inexperienced pilots against an enemy on alert for them? I doubt they will achieve much and what about the next battle? Because this relative handful of kamikazes isn't going to change anything.
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nbcman
Donor
Why are you assuming they only used Kates for kamikaze strikes as opposed to their full airwing? The Japanese used pretty much every possible air frame as a kamikaze IOTL.
EDIT: I see your previous post where you've assumed a force of 54 kamikaze trained Kates for Eastern Solomons. How did the IJN manage to produce/scavenge the extra 54 air frames plus get 54 carrier takeoff trained kamikaze pilots ready in under 3 months after the catastrophe of Midway?
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I believe by the time that dedicated Kamikazes were employed (Oct. '44) there were no operational carriers left in the IJN and any that still did exist could not put to sea for lack of fuel. I believe that after Cape Engaño Japan never put another carrier to sea.
Their remaining carriers were used to ferry supplies to Luzon a few times, but otherwise, yeah, by the time the kamikazes were employed their carrier fleet was defunct.
I also think taking off from a carrier puts a higher training demand on these disposable pilots. Plus, if the mission was scrubbed, the pilot would also need to know how to land on a carrier.
Yes plus one on all of this and this all goes to the reality of kamikazes
The Kamikazes came out of a context where due to the pressure of an ongoing campaigns Japan's best pilots had been killed, and due to resource pressures replacement pilot training was now poor. So the reality was poorly trained Japanese pilots were being sent up in planes that were also increasingly obsolescent against newer US planes which were being flown by US pilots that were better than the Japanese, add in better AA doctrine and the Japanese pilots had very very short operational life spans
Kamikaze was a solution that:
1) basically weaponised that short life span bit, in that if the chap is not coming back anyway (and importantly the pilot himself knows the odds are against him doing so) might as well give him an opportunity to gloriously take out as much as he can when he get shot down
2). gets round some of the issue of poor training, if all the chap has to do is take off identify a target and aim his nose at it and reach it without getting shot down*, there's a lot of thing you can get away with not teaching him (for example how to take off from let alone land** on an ACW)
*not actually that easy in the 1944 operating environment they were in, but by itself still less than you need as a pilot hoping to come back let alonme handle a vartey of missions! More fun facts about kamikaze, because of the the short training time at this point and because it's actually quite easy to get lost when flying over water if your not used to it especially when formations are not using radios to try and maintain surprise, quite a few got lost!
**and sometimes (not always) in order to be in position to take off from an ACW operating on campaign you had to first land on one!
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I'm assuming a limited kamikaze contingent because the number of targets would be 4 carriers, (Enterprise, Hornet, Wasp, Saratoga). The idea that the IJN would give up its ship killing punch (torpedo bombers) also makes no sense. Therefore that would not happen either. The optimal use would be as I said. To send the kamikazes in first with heavy fighter escort to knock out the decks and bingo fuel the lofted Wildcats. Then, the torpedo bombers come in and hit the carriers. Then, the IJN surface forces arrive and finish them off.
The B5N1 was an existing airframe that had been recently retired from frontline carrier service, and therefore was immediately available in large numbers, and operable on a carrier deck. Pulling 54 from land based units in Japan would be perfectly feasible, albeit at a cost in ASW patrols and some flight training of new recruits until replacements were provided. The answer to the second question is that in 1942 the IJN I think had something about 3,000 pre-war pilots (less losses), but graduated about 2,500 during the year for a total of 5,500. A kamikaze unit of 54 aircraft would be about 6 'guide' planes (ie, elite crews that pathfind for the force but would not make kamikaze attacks themselves) and about 48 more poorly trained pilots (ie, maybe around 200 hours flight time in comparison to the 1,000+ hours of the veterans by the summer of 1942).
In terms of the carrier take off trained, I assume you meant trained for carrier landings? The answer to that one is that there would be no point to training kamikaze pilots for carrier landings. If a flight was dispatched and missed all targets, the crews would need to be trained for water landings back at the fleet. There would be no time for something as useless as training a kamikaze pilot to do carrier landings. (The Kamikaze aircraft can fly strikes to ranges beyond conventional aircraft, as they can fly past bingo fuel looking for targets. The pathfinder crews are not making attacks, so the elite guides have extra fuel instead of a weapon. )
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Who said anything about heavier than normal bomb loads? I had said that a B5N1 could carry an 1,800lbs bomb in a kamikaze mission, but that's not "heavier than normal", that was normal. On the question of flight deck take offs with non-carrier qualified pilots, it might be the case that the lead kamikazes would go for a 500lbs bomb, or maybe 2 x 500lbs bombs, in order to drop the skill requirement for takeoff.
nbcman
Donor
(1) Regardless of the level of training of pilots, there still needs to be specific Kamikaze training for crews who have not been trained before the decision is made after Midway. When did that training take place in your timeline
(2) No, I did not mean landings. There is a difference between taking off from an airfield to taking off from a carrier. The IJNAS had a large group of expert trained pilots and there was a large percentage of carrier trained pilots. But if you are proposing lesser trained pilots, I would assume they would be far less likely to be trained in carrier operations. So the majority of the proposed 1942 Kamikaze pilots would need training both for Kamikaze attacks AND carrier take offs.
See this extract from the IJNAS wiki page; underlining added for emphasis:
Imperial Japanese Navy in World War II - Wikipedia
Band in China
Banned
So if they don't find the target, or if a scout finds the carrier but then the next wave doesn't which is quite common in carrier op they should just lose the plane and pilot? As in these carriers are only good for a one strike?
You still have to train them in carrier ops, hard to see how that's possible without landing them.