What if Germany was treated even worse?

[EmmettMcFly55]

I know there have been ideas about 'if Germany was treated less harsh, WWII would've never happened'. But what if Germany was treated even worse, and was lowered so much that it could never again rise to the point that it had a chance at winning a second world war?

I don't need POD's even though they would be nice, but I'd be interested in the alternate treaty.

Bonus points if Germany either goes willingly along with it (like if all of Germany is occupied at the time of the treaty being signed) or/and if it becomes a vassal state of one of the Allied powers.

Ideas would be the ceding of Baden to France, giving Belgium, Luxemburg and Netherlands Rhine-borders, restoring the pre-1866 states that were absorbed by Prussia in that year, giving Hamburg to Denmark, Emden to the Netherlands, realizing the Oder-Neisse border early, and so the list can go on.

 

[The Red]

I dont think that would work it would just make the Germans angrier and eventually the Allies would appease their way into Hitler getting everything back.

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

Well, there's a few issues:

- The Treaty of Versailles was one of several reasons for the rise of the Nazis, but definitely an important one (the other big important one is obviously Hitler). Without the economic hardship of Versailles, Germany might have been able to cope better with the Depression, which in turn would have meant lower support for the Nazis. I think however it's wrong to think that a rise of the Nazis would have inevitable, and conversely it's probably also wrong to think that a less harsh Versailles would have certainly butterflied away the Nazis.

- In regard for the general plausibility for a harsher Versailles, the most plausible way I can think of is somehow keep the Americans out of it, or make them less influencial, given the fact the Americans were most in favour of treating the Germans gently. Or, conversely, make the French more influencial.

- In regard for what a harsher Versailles would look like, now that's a good question. I think however that the border changes that EmmettMcFly55 suggested are ASB in my opinion, in particular the Rhine borders and the earlier Oder-Neisse line - I would think that ethnic cleansing of this magnitude was unthinkable from the perspective of 1918 - and I think it would have been unlikely even in 1945 without Joseph Stalin.

 

[aktarian]

the problem with Versialles was that it was both harsh and then not enforced fully. Basically impose all sorts of humiliating (not neccessary unjustified) terms which created resentment but then countries that imposed them decided they don't really have the will to enforce it fully so it was circumvented and then ignored while leaving the resentment.

Harsher Versailles would bring similar results only more resentment in Germany. Unless of course it would be enforced but how likely is that?

 

[I Blame Communism]

I know there have been ideas about 'if Germany was treated less harsh, WWII would've never happened'. But what if Germany was treated even worse, and was lowered so much that it could never again rise to the point that it had a chance at winning a second world war?

Germany never did have a chance of winning our second world war, it should be pointed our.

I don't need POD's even though they would be nice, but I'd be interested in the alternate treaty.

Bonus points if Germany either goes willingly along with it (like if all of Germany is occupied at the time of the treaty being signed) or/and if it becomes a vassal state of one of the Allied powers.

Not happening. I mean, occupying all of Germany would have been an expnesive waste of time, but it is within the bounds of possibility. But given ho much soul-searching it took for a liberal statesman to sign our Versailles, a treaty as crazy-go-nuts as the one you outline will just not be signed.

Ideas would be the ceding of Baden to France, giving Belgium, Luxemburg and Netherlands Rhine-borders, restoring the pre-1866 states that were absorbed by Prussia in that year, giving Hamburg to Denmark, Emden to the Netherlands, realizing the Oder-Neisse border early, and so the list can go on.

-What does France want with Baden? If we're going to be implausibly harsh on the Germans, why not the good old rhine border?

-Conversely, how the hell does one expand the Netherlands to a Rhine border? And why would one tack enormous German populations taht neithe wanted onto Belgium and Luxembourg? In fact, extending Luxembourg to the Rhine will give it a huge German-majority population, and the inhabitants of old Luxembourg could then end up Germanised. Talk about a backfire! Belgium will also have big problems with the new German... half... of its population, give or take a little.

-How does re-organising Germany internally constitute punishment?

-Hamburg? The Danes don't want it! They'll be persuaded to take the who le of Schleswig, max. Even in the mid-19th century wars, they were pretty much trying to divest themselves to Holstein. Hamburg? Remember that Denmark feels no ill-feeling towards Germany, being a neutral.

-Likewise the Netherlands. This pro-German neutral, happy in its boundaries, probably wont want Ostfriesland (which is also not that important, really).

-I'm not sure if the Oder-Neisse line is physically possible. Ethnic cleansing was not only not on the table in 1919, but if we put it there, where are we going to get all the Poles to fill up this areas, unless we're giving Poland its Stalin-boundaries as well. But again, Poland, locked in a life of death struggle with Russia, won't want this enormous military and logistical undertaking. The most they'll want is all of Upper Silesia, the Grenzmark, full sovereignty in Danzig (maybe) and southern East Prussia, assuming the allies can hand them over without Poland having to fight Germany.

So basically, this treaty is actually impossible. Not "the Entente didn't want to punish Germany that hard impossible", "will not be implemented without liberal dollops of ASB-sauce" impossible. We need a better harsher Versailles before we start this discussion properly. I'd recomend...

-Giving Poland the Grenzmark, all of Upper Silesia, and southern East Prussia. Making the whole of East Prussia into a Danzig-like Polish vassal state. Annexing Memel directly to Lithuania.

-Giving Denmark all of Schleswig.

-Creating a French protectorate on the left bank of the Rhine.

-Tighter naval restrictions.

-DMZ extended to cover all frontiers.

This is still implausible without screwing with the Entente leader's brains, but at least it can physically be done.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Wipe Germany of the map by splitting the territory among the neighbours (partition of Germany)???

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

Wipe Germany of the map by splitting the territory among the neighbours (partition of Germany)???

Unthinkable in 1919, I think. Besides, the only one who ever "seriously" proposed exactly that was that nutcase Kauffmann about 20 years later (and the big irony is that he gave the Nazis just what they wanted! )...

 

[Guarnasco]

Wipe Germany of the map by splitting the territory among the neighbours (partition of Germany)???

why not a return o a pre unitarian situation in Germany? whit no true "successor" of german state we don't need harsh reparations or painfull territorial losses

 

[fhaessig]

I think the first point to a harsher peace after WWI would be to have the government refuse to surrender while German armies still hold foreign soil and have the war drag on until mid 1919 at least, with a lot of fighting on german soil. ( nota : this would be very harsh on the german paople as they were conscripting all 16 year-old in 1918, not just special cases ( Alsace ) - french called up 17 year old and british 18 only - plus famine ( no way to exploit the western territories when the entente tanks are pushing in the Ruhr ), so in 1919, we'd likely see 14 year old 'volunteers' )

WIth the industrial heartland of Germany devasted by the war, it becomes even more obvious than OTL that Germany cannot plausibly pay for all the damages done to entente. However, ' le boche paiera' is a political necessity and some way has to be found to show the people that their suffering has yielded something....

 

[Nietzsche]

I know there have been ideas about 'if Germany was treated less harsh, WWII would've never happened'. But what if Germany was treated even worse, and was lowered so much that it could never again rise to the point that it had a chance at winning a second world war?

I don't need POD's even though they would be nice, but I'd be interested in the alternate treaty.

Bonus points if Germany either goes willingly along with it (like if all of Germany is occupied at the time of the treaty being signed) or/and if it becomes a vassal state of one of the Allied powers.

Ideas would be the ceding of Baden to France, giving Belgium, Luxemburg and Netherlands Rhine-borders, restoring the pre-1866 states that were absorbed by Prussia in that year, giving Hamburg to Denmark, Emden to the Netherlands, realizing the Oder-Neisse border early, and so the list can go on.

Congratulations, you've just pissed the German people off beyond all reason. You think what they did in 1939 was bad? What they're going to do now is going to be so much more horrible. Atleast Hitler had respect for some of the areas he conquered. This Germany is going to be out for blood, and they will probably decide to cover Europe in it's own ashes.

 

[I Blame Communism]

why not a return o a pre unitarian situation in Germany? whit no true "successor" of german state we don't need harsh reparations or painfull territorial losses

Because the states will just re-unify first chance they get. The only way to stop them would be by force. Congratulions, it's now sometime in the 20s-30s and you're up against re-armed, more-or-less unhumbled Germany!

Whoops.

Wipe Germany of the map by splitting the territory among the neighbours (partition of Germany)???

Nobody wants this. Denmark and the Low Countries wouldn't get involved, France wouldn't want the commitment of time and blood and the disruption to its internal politics, and Poland, assuming it takes approximately the GDR on top of the Oder-Neisse areas, now probably has more Germans in it than Poles.

I'm working on the assumption that while anything can be done to Germany, we do have to consider whether it would be at all possible for the allies to do it.

I think the first point to a harsher peace after WWI would be to have the government refuse to surrender while German armies still hold foreign soil and have the war drag on until mid 1919 at least, with a lot of fighting on german soil. ( nota : this would be very harsh on the german paople as they were conscripting all 16 year-old in 1918, not just special cases ( Alsace ) - french called up 17 year old and british 18 only - plus famine ( no way to exploit the western territories when the entente tanks are pushing in the Ruhr ), so in 1919, we'd likely see 14 year old 'volunteers' )

WIth the industrial heartland of Germany devasted by the war, it becomes even more obvious than OTL that Germany cannot plausibly pay for all the damages done to entente. However, ' le boche paiera' is a political necessity and some way has to be found to show the people that their suffering has yielded something....

For these reasons, in my opinion Germany was physically incapable of carrying the war on another year without going the way Russia went (not necesarilly in the commie sense, but definately in the breakdown of government and society, armed anarchy, and mass starvation sense). And of course this, providing no one government to sign a treaty and pay reparations, and creating fertile ground for communism, is the last thing anybody, Germany or the Entente, wants. Germany refusing to make peace in 1918 would be an act of epic stupidity and hopefully any government which tried it would be neatly decapitated before imploding.

 

[perfectgeneral]

Search for 'Versailles'?

I like the regional break up offered by Imajin in a previous thread on this:

 

[stevep]

I know there have been ideas about 'if Germany was treated less harsh, WWII would've never happened'. But what if Germany was treated even worse, and was lowered so much that it could never again rise to the point that it had a chance at winning a second world war?

I don't need POD's even though they would be nice, but I'd be interested in the alternate treaty.

Bonus points if Germany either goes willingly along with it (like if all of Germany is occupied at the time of the treaty being signed) or/and if it becomes a vassal state of one of the Allied powers.

Ideas would be the ceding of Baden to France, giving Belgium, Luxemburg and Netherlands Rhine-borders, restoring the pre-1866 states that were absorbed by Prussia in that year, giving Hamburg to Denmark, Emden to the Netherlands, realizing the Oder-Neisse border early, and so the list can go on.

EmmettMcFly55

I don't think your ideas are too practical given the population imbalances that causes, as a couple of other people said. Too many Germans under non-German rule. One thing I've thought about in a few scenarios is something along the lines of a different tail end to the war with the approaches for a separate peace by Austria under Karl being accepted. As such the allies decide to keep some Hapsburg state and hence agree the transfer of Silesia back to Austria in compensation for losses to Serbia.

Having started on this route it makes sense to continue. The kingdoms of Bavaria, Saxony, Wurtemburg etc are restored to full independence. Hanover is restored and the bulk of Schelwig-Holstein, other than those returned to Denmark are transferred to it. [That cuts off the rump Prussia from the North Sea. Also the small remains of the German fleet, say 2-4 BBs and related units, are transferred to Hanover]. Saxony is restored to its pre-1814 borders.

Those changes leave Prussia split into two but it was rather an artifical state anyway. The agrarian, autocratic east of the Prussian heartland and the more merchantile, industrial and largely Catholic Rhineland. As such establish a republic in the west and keep the east a monarchy. i.e. work on increasing the social differencies between the two.

Under those conditions, with a far less threatening Germany you have the conditions for a more stable peace, even if you still have Russia crippled by civil war and then under communist control, which was probably the real cripplier for the Versailles Treaty. If you could also get the US to agree to the British proposal to cancel war debts then you could have basis for a much stronger economic peace. You still need some financial compensation for France and Belgium especially given the economic damage done by the Germans to their industrial heartlands. However this could be applied to the rump Prussian kingdom.

This might be rather ASB I'm afraid given US attitudes at the time. Don't think Britain would have had the economic position to have cancelled its own loans to the allies without the Americans pitching in but could be practical.

Not sure if you consider this a more harsh treaty, as most Germans will probably be better off under it. However you might have a significantly more stable peace and central Europe even if Russia goes off the rails.

Steve

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

*facepalm*

Where's Susano when you need him?!

 

[Valdemar II]

JUst one thing Denmark didn't want South Schleswig (except a minority*), the government at the time dislike annexing even North Schleswig, so taking Hamburg or Holstein is out of the picture.

*Primary the third largest party and the King.

 

[rast]

In 1918, the "old kingdoms" had no attraction for the Germans any more. The monarchy in Bavaria collapsed before the Prussian one. The Württemberg king was only glad to abdicate and lead a private life. - Any attempt to revive the old order is hopeless.

By creating separate "republics" you'll immediately find that they try to come together again. Having "states" is a normal condition for Germans, they are federally organised, not centrally. - But the idea of "Deutschland" was so ingrained that it could not possibly have been destroyed by creating "republics" in Prussia etc. (which is what happened anyway IOTL - without the Reich perishing).