What if Germany makes peace on one of the fronts?

jamesownz

Is it possible at all after say Kursk for World War 2 to end in a stalemate?

I've read that Stalin suggested peace to the Reich a number of times with the last one being in 1944.. if say for some reason Hitler accepted this peace would this change anything on the Western front? Would the Western allies have the stomach to finish the job on their own? An invasion of France then would just be suicide for so many troops.

On the other hand Stalin was also very paranoid of the West making peace with Hitler too right?(and in the end didn't Hitler even come around on the idea of surrendering to the West so he could continue on fighting in the East?) If that happened would anything change? Would such a deal just be the West letting the two sides bleed out and then finishing off Germany? I imagine Stalin still wins the war at the cost of a million or two more troops.

Now for a little side question.. say the Germans "win" world war 2 by knocking the Soviets out of the war AND making peace with the West.. how long in your opinion would it be before an eventual World War 3?
 

Ingsoc

jamesownz said:
Is it possible at all after say Kursk for World War 2 to end in a stalemate?

I've read that Stalin suggested peace to the Reich a number of times with the last one being in 1944..
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Before we go any further - where on earth did you read that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_Conference

Unconditional Surrender (yes, against Stalin and Churchill's better judgement) was demanded in January 1943. Not a chance over a year later Stalin is making separate pleas for peace. Why in 1944, of all years, when it's clearly only going to end one way?
 
shiftygiant

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Assuming this peace either returns to pre-war borders or B-L, it won't happen. Both sides have lost too much to accept anything more then the others total destruction. However, if an agreement is somehow made, Germany still have to fight off the WAllies, and there is no guarantee Stalin won't just use the peace to build up his forces to blitz through Germany. The latter thought would have been the most prominent in the minds of Hitler (or his successor if he's dead) and his high command.
 
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chris N

It is highly likely that if Stalin did reach an agreement with Nazi Germany ending the war it would only be a matter of time before the war restarted- perhaps 6-9 months. But if it did happen there would be a permanet split between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. There might even be a give on the Unconditional surrender if the Nazi's were removed from power.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

Peace on one front? Only if the Nazis surrender to Stalin, but not the west. Which just isn't going to happen.

The Nazis MIGHT have tried to surrender to the WAllies only - but the WAllies would never have accepted a unilateral surrender. Whereas, the Nazis distrusted the Soviets far more than the West, and would never have offered a deal Stalin would accept (basically total surrender to Stalin).
 

Deleted member 1487

It would have to happen some time in 1942 against Stalin by offering a reasonable peace deal before the bogging down at Stalingrad happens. Then its a temporary ceasefire until Stalin in ready to fight again.
 

MattII

If Stalin makes peace he loses L-L, which if it happens early enough means the Germans still technically control huge swathes of Soviet territory.
 

jamesownz

And if Germany is able to make peace with the West? How long and how much more bloody does that make the war in the East?

I know everyone will say the West demanded unconditional surrender but do you believe them? I mean we know was terrified of Germany making peace with the West..
 

Shaby

jamesownz said:
And if Germany is able to make peace with the West? How long and how much more bloody does that make the war in the East?

I know everyone will say the West demanded unconditional surrender but do you believe them? I mean we know was terrified of Germany making peace with the West..
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Yes, the Wallies meant it. US was not going to take partial solution and then have to fight it out all over again in 20 years. They wanted to get the GIs to Berlin and dismantle the Nazi regime. Nothing less would be acceptable.
 

pattersonautobody

Let's try handwaving this a little bit

Can we try handwaving this a little bit? Something like, in 1940 the war between the USSR, Britain, and France went from really cold to warm. This was not completely impossible, as France did make troop guarantees to Finland OTL and there were plans to bomb USSR oil production.

So, let's say both went ahead, but France still falls and Germany subsequently attacks Russia. The war pretty much looks the same as the Wallies could not put a significant dent in USSR oil production, even if they started bombing Baku.

_______________

Now with that out of the way, it is June 1944. D-Day fails because of a storm. Then a coup occurs and Hitler is killed. A subsequent landing in southern France is contained and then militarily repulsed. Let's hand wave this too.

The USSR and the Wallies are simply co-belligerants. The USSR has not returned American pilots that have crash landed in the USSR, and their refusal to return a B29 and its crew that recently crashed proves to be the last straw.

The Germans offer the return of France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway to pre-war borders, and include reparations and agree to Wallied military bases in Norway. In exchange, the Wallies agree to a peace and to stop Lend Lease to Russia.

Meanwhile in the East Operation Bagration completely annihilates AGC. Without Hitler hamstringing efforts, elements of AGC were allowed to withdraw, but few make it out. Before the Jassy–Kishinev Offensive occurs, the Germans and Romanians withdraw to new lines in the Carpathian Mountains, hoping to hold a more defensible line and avoid collapse like in AGC.

Germany's reserves are increased by a western exit from the war, and the withdrawal of troops from Norway, Italy, and France. The bombs are no longer dropping on their cities. Finland decides to stay in the war with more German support, at least until the Russians agree to a separate peace without reparations and land concessions.

The Baltic nations are all in, with their resistance groups uniting to join local auxiliaries and the Waffen SS to repulse the Soviets. However, even with Lend Lease turned off, the USSR has at this point the most powerful military on the planet.

How does the rest of the war play out after mid-August 1944 under these conditions?
 

lucaswillen05

jamesownz said:
Is it possible at all after say Kursk for World War 2 to end in a stalemate?

I've read that Stalin suggested peace to the Reich a number of times with the last one being in 1944.. if say for some reason Hitler accepted this peace would this change anything on the Western front? Would the Western allies have the stomach to finish the job on their own? An invasion of France then would just be suicide for so many troops.

On the other hand Stalin was also very paranoid of the West making peace with Hitler too right?(and in the end didn't Hitler even come around on the idea of surrendering to the West so he could continue on fighting in the East?) If that happened would anything change? Would such a deal just be the West letting the two sides bleed out and then finishing off Germany? I imagine Stalin still wins the war at the cost of a million or two more troops.

Now for a little side question.. say the Germans "win" world war 2 by knocking the Soviets out of the war AND making peace with the West.. how long in your opinion would it be before an eventual World War 3?
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On the Russian Front probably not after But if Kursk turns out to b a really big disaster for he Red army thn maybe Stalin would consider a deal in return for a German withdrawl

On the Western Front, only if D Day turns into a real disaster
 

jsb

pattersonautobody said:
The Germans offer the return of France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway to pre-war borders, and include reparations and agree to Wallied military bases in Norway. In exchange, the Wallies agree to a peace and to stop Lend Lease to Russia.
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But how long before France builds her army up and digs in along the frontier sufficiently to hold till USA+GB can join her ?
 

pattersonautobody

jsb said:
But how long before France builds her army up and digs in along the frontier sufficiently to hold till USA+GB can join her ?
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Why would they want to, they would lose reparations...perhaps for non-payment? If they did, they would be going it alone and German would likely be able to hold them off with a couple dozen understrength divisions.
 

jsb

pattersonautobody said:
Why would they want to, they would lose reparations...perhaps for non-payment? If they did, they would be going it alone and German would likely be able to hold them off with a couple dozen understrength divisions.
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How does Germany actually pay for reparations and fight the USSR at the same time ? (all with GB/US not willing to trading much with them)

Making peace with the west will require sending back all the forced labour (in Jan 1944 2,155,000 or 33.4% of total)

A sovereign France will rebuild her army and will hate the Germans for the occupation and loss of Alsace-Lorraine. GB/US will still not trust Germany or begin to disarm due to fighting Japan and would be willing to support France/Western Europe.

These two factors combined suggest to me that the western powers will get together and restart the war as soon as they are ready and in a much better position than OTL with the fighting starting on the French eastern border rather than at Normandy ?

The problem for Germany is it may start as just a few French divisions that can be held by couple dozen understrength divisions but without knocking out France you soon have massive US/GB army's with unmatchable numbers of tanks and aircraft arriving.
 

pattersonautobody

It's a risk the Germans take ITTL. However, being that politically it might be tough to just restart a war (it takes months of planning, selling the public on it, etcetera), if peace is made in August 1944, it at least buys the Germans months of respite from bombing. There's a good chance, ITTL, that the West so thoroughly hates the RUssians that they will dissuade the French, desiring that the Germans and Russians wear each other out.
 
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